Regret it Brexit?

allyg above, 19th May:
I don’t recall though asking a remain voter why they voted to remain.
allyg: 8th May:
Varian can you tell me what the advantages are of being in the EU that you mention

Gerispringer
“Reports in those countries of the U.K. show a picture of similar weaknesses in the U.K.- huge national debt, slow growth, weak governments etc so it’s not all -we are strong , they are weak -we all have issues and maybe we should work together rather than slagging them off with some sort of joy.”

Gerispringer
This discussion is not about who is strong, who is weak, it is not about rejoicing in others distress or division. It is about putting the facts on the state of the EU in keeping with a leave argument,( as you would expect), from information available to all in the public domain to read for themselves. The conclusion drawn from that information will be different and perhaps even partisan, it may be rejected without even consideration but it is presented in the hope that it informs.

People ask those of us who voted leave, why we did so, whilst also condemning us for it, often viciously. I don’t recall though asking a remain voter why they voted to remain. The answer to the question why, is difficult to answer since I suspect that there is no one answer, it will have been a different reason for us all. I suspect though, and I may be wrong, that within each leave decision or remain decision there was the belief that it is what one individual voice at the ballot box believed is best for our Country into the 21st Century.

Putting aside just for a moment the essential fundamental arguments of honouring the democratic process or discussion on the EU as a failing system that has served it’s original purpose and is no longer valid for the 21st century capitalist system. A major consideration is how change is a scary thing, made less so by as much supported knowledge as possible, pasted if needed. The future is a prediction, * “The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.” Looking behind us informs the present, in order to plan the future. One thing I believe is that nothing stands still, we adapt, adjust or we stagnate.

L.P. Hartley, The Go-Between*

On your remarks about the UK having similar weaknesses to other Country’s in the EEA isn’t that the point. The failure of the EU is EEA wide worse for some than others but affecting all. It is not just a failure of economics alone it is the consequences on society causing polarisation of political extremes that endanger us all.

Here are some figures - UK Government Debt.
General government gross debt was £1,786.3 billion at the end of December 2017, equivalent to 87.7% of gross domestic product (GDP), 27.7 percentage points above the reference value of 60% set out in the Protocol on the Excessive Deficit Procedure.
•General government gross debt first exceeded the 60% Maastricht reference value at the end of 2009, when it was 64.1% of GDP.
•General government deficit (or net borrowing) was £39.4 billion in 2017, a decrease of £19.0 billion compared with 2016; this is equivalent to 1.9% of GDP, 1.1 percentage points below the reference value of 3.0% set out in the Protocol on the Excessive Deficit Procedure.
•This is the first time the government deficit has been below the 3.0% Maastricht reference value since 2007, when it was 2.6% of GDP.
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicspending/bulletins/ukgovernmentdebtanddeficitforeurostatmaast/decemb

The present Government is trying to implement a decision made by the people through a Referendum, the terms of which were set by Parliament. Since Parliament includes both Houses, it is arguable that Parliament is now trying to thwart the Government in a thankless and possibly impossible task, the direct result of Parliament's lack of forethought and planning.

We are now so far distant from the assurances given on sovereignty in 1975 that our representative on the Council of Ministers would have a veto over anything we didn't like; and that if, at later stage, we decided the EU was not for us, we could simply repeal the treaty and come out.

If we end up with an extreme right or left-wing government in the UK, it will be, in my view, the worse for all of us; but it will be the choice of the people and reversible, unless the democratic system is dismantled or subverted. One problem with the EU is that nothing seems reversible and the direction is all one way.

I agree with Farage on leaving the EU. I disagree with him on gay marriage. I probably disagree on many other things. On the other hand, I agree with Remain MP Caroline Lucas, 10 years an MEP, that the influence of the Commission and lobby groups is too large. Several MPs from both sides have voiced the need for a reformed EU over many years but to little or no effect.

I love the way people are still talking about the EU being undemocratic etc etc —— just look at the way the present Govt is trying to become the least democratic govt of all!

Gerispringer The Italian 5 star party is a populist eurosceptic party, certainly not right wing nationalist. Why shouldn't N Farage support their ideals?
Or is any eurosceptic a right wing nationalist?

Cunco
"I will also state overtly and categorically that I do not want extreme Left or Right parties powerful in the EU. It is one of my fears of the EU that an inflexible, bureaucratic, undemocratic and failing union could leave us under the influence of an extremist party. I join you in overtly and categorically that I do not want extreme left or right parties powerful in the EU".

I associate with your statement completely.

I seem to remember N Farage approving of 5 Star

It is one of my fears of the EU that an inflexible, bureaucratic, undemocratic and failing union could leave us under the influence of an extremist party.

It strikes me, cunco that that is precisely what the Leave vote has done for the UK.

Another of your assertions regarding the mentality of anybody who voted Leave.

If you want to see it that way, POGS.

I will also state overtly and categorically that I do not want extreme Left or Right parties powerful in the EU. It is one of my fears of the EU that an inflexible, bureaucratic, undemocratic and failing union could leave us under the influence of an extremist party.

My neighbour cracked me up .. she said said she regrets voting for Brexit as her holidays have shot up in price lol ... at least she’s honest lol

Maizie d

Another of your assertions regarding the mentality of anybody who voted Leave.

MazieD
I counter your veiled assertion of some Leavers jubilation re right wing nationalists. I think people are getting bored with these sorts of tags being attributed to them.
It is public knowledge that throughout the EU there is a rise in core nationalism, not right wing, it's the everyday workers in the founding EU countries seeing their hard fought living standards ebbing, the newer countries seeing their sovereignty ebbing, the Euro creating imbalances between the strong and weaker economies.
Leavers recognise these issues, and feel that unless there is swift action to dramatically reform, something that the EU is poor at the groundswell of dismay will grow and countries who 'remain' in the EU will, increasingly, do their own thing, as Hungary and Italy have begun to do so. The U.K. Has an opportunity to build a strong future and offer an alternative cooperative Europe.
Those who regard the EU as keeping peace in Europe should recognise the role UK played in defending freedom and peace in Europe long before the EU.

I think, POGS that some Leavers' expressions of jubilation at the rise of rightwing/nationalist parties in the EU implies that they agree with them even if it's not overtly stated.

Gerrispringer

" 5 Star are not a group even the most fervent Brexiteer should be hoping to hop into bed with"

Have I missed noting a Brexiteer has said 5 Stat are good bed fellows ?

Allygranl

I saw no issue with the 'cutting and and pasting ' you provided.

Italy , France, Germany , all EU countries have at some time been posted about on the ' copious ' amounts of Brexit threads on Gransnet and it is totally relevant to raise the problem's/issues that not only Brexit causes the European Union.

Yes the small majority did elect the populist eurosceptic parties, but it was not the eurosceptic platform that won their small, and divided, majority. They promise an end to austerity measures and a tough line on immigration. The northern League also pledged to fight corruption, which has been a blight in Italy for years, with the mafia still holding influence in the south. The figure of Berlesconi still in the wings , despite his withdrawal from politics, many believe he is still the puppet master of 5 Star. 5 Star are not a group even the most fervent Brexiteer should be hoping to hop into bed with, they openly wish to ally themselves with Putin and people like Marin Le Pen in France.

I too wish Italy well and although I have always opposed the creation of the euro, for economic and political reasons, there is no joy in seeing the issues it brings or exacerbates.

I would not know if there is simmering anti EU feeling in Italy but I understand that a majority of Italian voters supported Eurosceptic candidates in the national election. [Source: The Guardian]. This, of course, could mainly be because they were fed up with the alternative.

While we escaped joining the euro, committed Remainers such as Michael Heseltine believe that if we were to stay in the EU, we would eventually join. He also believes that if we leave, it will be bad news for the EU because it will be dominated by Germany. I am interested in his and other Remain views because I don't know what the Remain view of our long term future in the EU is. Quite a lot of Remain voters that I know have differening views or no real view. Some simply voted Remain as they did not to rock the boat. I voted Leave, not because I saw it as a great option but a better choice between a rock and a hard place.

Here is a view of the long-term future of the EU which I found thought-provoking and will probably upset us all. Of course, it comes with the warning that nobody can predict the future, expert or not.

carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=62445

Th article about Italy’s failure to form a government is, I am supposing since it is just another cut n paste job, intended as evidence that European countries are on the verge of breakdown. Reports in those countries of the U.K. show a picture of similar weaknesses in the U.K.- huge national debt, slow growth, weak governments etc so it’s not all -we are strong , they are weak -we all have issues and maybe we should work together rather than slagging them off with some sort of joy.
I have lived in Italy and have relatives there so visit frequently. The political picture is complex- there hasn’t been a government for 3 months. The 2 largest populist parties are trying to form a coalition, which would give them a majority. However, since they have spent a great deal of time slagging each other off working together may prove difficult, The League is strong in the north which is very different from the south, where 5 star have won. 5 Star has links with Berlesconi and the Mafia , the League said they would never work with them, as one of their pledges was to fight corruption. Now Berlesconi has said he won’t work with 5 Star , so the League and 5 Star are attempting to work together otherwise there would have to be another election. Italians are used to this. Since 1948 there has been a series of coalitions. Any mention of the government in the espresso bar is met with a shrug and the expectation is that it won’t be long before another election. As the Guardian article stated many feel they have been left alone with Greece to cope with the Mediterranean migrant crisis. It depends if the new government manages to work together long enough to do anything, but that is one of the big ifs in the article. There isn’t a massive simmering anti EU feeling in Italy- there is more of an expectation that this government won’t survive long. Anyway glad you are all so interested in Italian politics and I am sure, like me, you wish the Italian people all the best in their hopes for national unity.

Joelsnan your restraint is admirable.

Exactly the responses anticipated

Cinco your post is, in the modern vernacular, hot!
"In Italy, the new coalition which is causing concern in Brussels and in bond markets, perhaps also had its roots in the Crunch and the reported fact that ever since joining the euro, Italy's average growth has been zero."

Jon Henley European affairs correspondent
@jonhenley
Thu 17 May 2018 12.35 BSTLast modified on Thu 17 May 2018 16.26 BST
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/17/populists-rise-to-power-in-italy-sets-perilous-precedent-for-eu

"Italy’s new government, likely to be formally confirmed within the next few days, sets a perilous precedent for Brussels: it marks the first time a founding member of the EU has been led by populist, anti-EU forces.
Economists and the Italian media have costed the agreed M5S-League policy programme at between €65bn and €100bn. And the two parties have repeatedly said they feel no need to respect European commitments in implementing their programme.
Fed up with the country’s long, seemingly irreversible economic decline, persistent high unemployment, and a refugee and migrant crisis, Italy’s voters turned on the political centre that has governed (or failed to govern) Italy since the 1980s.
But some analysts fear that if the radical new government they elected does push ahead with its promised policies, the result could be a Greek-style banking and debt crisis in the eurozone’s third-largest economy.
Italy’s debt mountain is €2.3tn, or 132% of GDP, the highest ratio anywhere in Europe apart from Greece. If – and it’s a big if – the coalition starts reversing recent reforms and racking up deficits, markets could rapidly lose faith in Italy’s ability to repay. And if that happens, things could turn quite nasty, quite quickly.
Europe’s, and especially the eurozone’s, biggest fear is that Italy plunges into the kind of economic meltdown that eventually came very close to catapulting Greece – by that stage led, remember, by a radical-left government that was hellbent on overthrowing the eurozone’s rules – out of the single currency in 2015.
The parallel is far from perfect, and neither M5S nor the League seem to be spoiling for the kind of fight that Syriza once sought. But the EU could most certainly do without a Greek-style crisis on an Italian scale."

1 May 2018 by Ian Kearns:
"Forget Brexit, the EU may be on the brink of collapse"
"If and when a new crisis comes, there will be no common European response. Individual eurozone countries will be largely left to fend for themselves while EU leaders, as in the last crisis, seek to make decisions largely on the hoof. The question now is for how long eurozone leaders can get away with it? And the answer is not, perhaps, for much longer."

capx.co/forget-brexit-the-eu-may-be-on-the-brink-of-collapse/

Diane James MEP "The Euro will collapse soon, lets hope it is orderly. 15/03/2018
"For once, I can honestly say thanks to Gordon Brown for not dragging us in, but please note this: if we had not voted for Brexit we would have been sucked into the Euro within a few short years, and we would be one of the countries facing this crisis."

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/diane-james-mep/euro-collapse_b_15335826.html

Snide remarks? Perhaps she means pointing out glaring errors in someone's posts or questioning the validity of sources?

Which snide remark(s) are you referring to ?

Most people I know including myself did the same, but facts were not available to the extent that would allow for a truly informed decision , there still isn’t & wont be for along time.