Regret it Brexit?

Hi Mostly Harmless, your not reading carefully are you! How patronising.
Have you actually read this whole thread allygran?
If you had you would see my reasons there. Or any number of other threads over the last two or three years.

Mostly Harmless

In context, I haven't re read the diatribe I posted but the reference I think was about the visit by an unelected eurocrat to Ireland and then to London and the announcement that they had rejected the proposal on the Irish border control after Brexit the day before local elections. I think that is right. Just check it and let me know if that is a satisfactory answer for you.

Varian thanks for your valuable insight. Lets get some quality posting from you then we can have a debate. You set the standard and I will do my best to keep up.

Mostly Harmless let's have some then. What is it that made you vote to remain? I really am interested, give us some facts, convince us that your right and we are wrong.
Lets go!

smileless and allygran
We cannot be controlled by unelected eurocrats. Look at just how much they are trying to control our elections From Allygrans posts.
Perhaps you could find research that supports your comments allygran.

Thank you for your support it is really appreciated.

Smileless2012

I agree with everything you have said.

And what a refreshing change to have a democratic debate on the News and Politics forum Allygran.

allygran1 do ignore those who cannot debate but rather resort to personal jibes and dismissals.

Keep it clean!

You know what they say about people who can't use words don't you. Let's not engage in bullying or insults.

I will continue to post what I would like to discuss. Anyone who is interested then we will discuss, anyone who is not interested then start another discussion. If i am interested I will join in with that as well.

This is an open site and what fun we are going to have debating in a democratic society.

Allygran, your posts have been fantastic & very informative thank you

I agree Jalima and varian that cross party involvement would be beneficial but the problem we seem to have is that party politics are brought into the equation.

Parties try to score points against the Government by trashing the efforts that are being made for successful negotiations. There are some who appear to take great delight in saying how incompetent the Gov. is and that Brexit will be an unmitigated disaster. That seems to be more important than brokering a good deal that will benefit everyone, both here and in the remaining EU countries.

I don't recall Allygran posting that she didn't believe that the people she elected were elected mostlyharmless. What she referred to were those that have considerable authority within the EU who were never elected for eg. Junker.

As for the loss of manufacturing in this country, this was in part due to the number of strikes that brought many manufacturing plants to a stand still. Companies moved factories abroad because they needed a more reliable workforce and not ones that would take strike action at the drop of hat.

varian The EU nationals working on the old peoples wards etc. are not here for their Christian or benevolent values, it's because the NHS pays more than the health services in their own countries, that's all.
Everything that draws EU nationals here to work is salary and benefits based not the lovely weather or anything else.

Varian, I am very new and it seems you have had lots of debate on this.

Clearly it is still worth debating.Although if your suffering from Brexit fatigue, you need not engage, although I suspect you won't be able to resist will you.

I am a she. I am very old, I am not an activist or a plant from an activist group whom I am told monitor and manipulate sites like this.

I am ordinary, interesting I am told and not ready to surrender my democracy.

Look forward to much debate. Once people stop responding then we can talk about something else. Till then let's Brexit on!

allygran I read your diatribe, unfortunately it does not make sense,
A debate needs to be backed up with facts!

If you nip into your nearest old people's ward you will almost certainly meet staff who are EU nationals. Some folk would never respond to lists or lucid arguments. I prefer quality rather than quantity in political postings.

Hi Mostly Harmless, your not reading carefully are you!

Gerispringer why are you so aggressive and personal? It really diminishes what your saying.

You have made some good points here and I will respond. I am afraid my diatribe's take time to put together. However, it has encouraged your response which is lovely and challenges my views. That is great!

Sadly, your a Government blamer. So we are probably going to agree to differ in the end, but won't we have fun getting there.

I will be back with a response...watch this space!

GillT57 thanks for responding, I really would like to hear why you feel you want to remain in the EU. It would be very interesting to debate this with you. Please do list your reasons, I really am interested to know why you made your choice.

You have been kind enough to read my extensive postings today, and comment. I am happy to read yours. It is the only way we will come to understand each others viewpoint. We may still agree to disagree, but that's OK too.

It is interesting that although you have paid into the NHS through NI all your working life, you are happy to allow those who have not contributed to the cost of running our NHS access to treatment. This is magnanimous of you. Just a question, will you feel the same when the NI has to be increased to mirror the actual modern day cost. Will you be still be happy to give a free service to those who have not paid? There are thousands of Health Tourists as they are known who come to Britain for the purpose of using our NHS, not because they are poor, but because they can get away with not paying for expensive treatment carried out by first class medical staff.

I am not suggesting that people who need treatment don't get it, I merely suggest that it is something that has to be paid for and if you have not paid NI with the exception of children and dependents who are legally exempt then your most likely not a British Citizen and should pay for your treatment.

Now you are going to say, what about those who cannot pay? There would have to be some sort of assessment of means and a bill forwarded to their home Government if they are not British Citizens.

If we want a first class Health Service it must control the income and the outgoings. You cannot expect the medical staff to judge or need to care about anything other than medical needs.

Administration and control of payment for treatment for those who are not insured, or not British citizens is surely a sensible control when running a large scale service such as healthcare.

Your explanation of your view on this is not clumsy at all it is very diplomatic and skilfull in my view. Sadly I have to disagree with you that calling foul is what I think your implying I am doing. What I am suggesting is that fair play (to continue the analogy) must prevail.

Health tourist come to Britain for all sorts of treatment. Taking the service from a British citizen, and burdening our NHS with a heavy cost for a service that they not entitled to.

Now I understand that we are living in a 'caring' society, but the reality is that for every person who does not pay for what they receive, either through NI or by invoice, diminishes the service for all legitimate patients and threatens the effectiveness of the service.

Sadly yet again the Government is to blame for poor service, etc. No they are not in my view. Each NHS Trust is run by very highly paid executives because the "manage" a complex twenty four hour service environment. They employ more professional people than any other organisation, they are the biggest employer in the Country. They deal with hundreds of thousands of people in multiple disciplinary services every week. This cost money. Where does it come from, our NI is one source, but our taxes are the other. We must start to live in the real world.

This is not as subtle or as skilfull as you were with me, so please forgive me if what I say seems raw. My view is that we have to stop putting an unrealistic romanticised view on caring.

If anyone wants to see the reality of 'caring' nip into your nearest old people's ward. The nursing staff there will fill you in on the reality.

Caring in reality depends on money, how much you have in the pot determines how many staff you can have, this affect patient/carer ratio's and how much time the carer has to spend with the patient.

How much you have to pay those carers/nursing staff/medical professionals etc determines all sorts of issues, like staff retention, standards, sickness/absence levels. All contributing factors to a well run stable health service or any other organisation.

A friend of mine, ran a business, she was Christian and ran the business on Christian principles of caring for her staff, trusting her staff, treating everyone with fairness, being open and honest with her staff and complete transparency about the business with her staff, suppliers etc.

She went bust, because, every area where trust and honesty were involved, she was robbed, either of money, or time, or she was lied to and deceived.

She asked me why, when she had cared for everybody. My answer was that she was not playing on an even playing field (keeping up the analogious topic) she was playing fair, but the other weren't.

Sorry wandering again. I really would like to see your list.

Varian
Allygran might be new to GN but she certainly knows her onions as far as the eu is concerned. You might not want to read her posts ( so don't) but there are many here who do.
Your constant harping on about UKIP reminds me of the Monty Python dead parrot sketch.
Insert party or UKIP where appropriate.
E's passed on!this parrot is no more!
E has ceased to be!
E's expired and gone to meet his maker.
E's stiff, bereft of life, E rests in peace.
E's off the twig
E's kicked the bucket
E's shuffled off 'is mortal coil
This is an ex parrot.

So allygran you vote in EU elections but don’t believe that the people you elected are elected? What?

You are probably right Jalima in that it is more likely to go ahead in some form and in that case cross party involvement would be beneficial.

However I still believe that the best possible future for our country would be to Remain in the EU and we should not give up hope that sense will prevail and we can exit brexit and decide to stay.

You are right in what you say Jalima and I have tried to be a glass half full type of person but I honestly cannot say I have seen anything which gives me any confidence in the future of the U.K.

I am very worried about the loss of jobs with companies starting to move out of U.K. and contracts which are either not or unlikely to be renewed. Jobs do not concern us directly but it does for close family members.

I see that the fishing quotas are still being mentioned without the fact given that some fishermen made money by selling their rights to foreign fleets. You cannot do that and then moan it is not fair and want the rights dished out again - probably so you can sell them again and refill the coffers.

It would be nice to have some confidence in the future of the U.K. and see a bright future but I fear that may be some years ahead. I feel a lot of damage has already been done to the U.K. and even if Brexit was now stopped (which I still hope it is) it will be some years before we get back to how we were.

varian It is going to go ahead but I do think that there should be a cross-party group negotiating this - after all, who knows which government will be dealing with the aftermath.

allygran in your long diatribe on equality you seem to imagine that the only alternative to inequality is communism. Our society is becoming more unequal, there are fewer opportunities for social mobility and more children in poverty than 20 or so years ago. Scandinavian countries manage to have a more equal society, yes, with much higher taxation, more expensive alcohol etc but much better provision for working parents, child etc. And these are not communist countries, or maybe you think they are.
Closing mines is not the same as destroying manufacturing and selling off all our utilities to foreign buyers. France, Italy, Germany make their own cars, tractors, trains, machinery, high end textiles in both France and Italy , not every thing is made in China We shouldn’t assume that demand for throw away fashion and plastic tat is going to increase evermore and therefore as good capitalists we just have to meet that demand despite the damage we are doing to the planet. Many people are more environmentally aware and just filling the world up with disposable rubbish is unsustainable. So on the one hand you are condemning globalisation, then on the other hand saying we have embraced it and it will continue. You don’t say what “change “ is inevitable, surely having more respect for the planet and not just allowing anything for the pursuit of profit for the few is not what most people want- you also seem to accept increased inequality as inevitable - even desirable - why can’t that change? No point us being protectionist, we don’t make anything to protect. Why is German productivity 30% higher than the U.K. ? Even France productivity is 20% higher.
Sorry I am not going to support this useless government who don’t seem to have a clue what is happening from one day to the next and are too busy making sure the wealthy are cushioned from the effects of their blunders.