Regret it Brexit?

That was in reply to varian's last post, not to nn btw.

Whereas others do not and see a bright future - and they are entitled to believe it without the criticism and snide remarks which have been expressed so often on GN.

I repeat - not what I voted for but I am a glass half full kind of person and I do not think that wallowing in pessimism is good for anyone.
I agree that there are many worries but mine could be different to yours. You are obviously a Europhile whereas some of my family are children of the Commonwealth, so perhaps we have a different perspective on this.

Oh dear , here we go, personal insults rearing their heads 'again'! Propagandist for Ukip, best ignored, doesn't have any knowledge of how GN debates are conducted etc! How patronising are these comments. Well Allygran, a lot of these so called debates were conducted in an atmosphere of bullying,personal insults and trashing of other people's opinions to the point that lots of us gave up and left the forum. Welcome to the democratic world of GN! Oh, and good luck!!

Not sour grapes Jalima. I have been on GN long enough to remember that although you have told us several times that you voted Remain, you were somewhat reluctant and undecided.

There are folk like you who have decided that we must now make the best of a bad job, but there are also many like me who are now more than ever convinced that leaving the EU will cause appalling damage to our country and to the future of our children and grandchildren and do not believe that we should acquiesce in this national tragedy.

Either way these posts attempting to dominate our discussions by inundating us with barrages of disinformation are best ignored.
And none of it is compulsory bed-time reading

That sounds like sour grapes to me varian

Signed:
A Remainer who thinks we now have to make the very best out of a bad job.

Or you could just read the Daily MAil

Petra I think you will find that Allygran1 is a very new poster who seems to have very little knowledge or understanding of the debates we have had on the GN Politics forum over the last three or four years, either that or she (or he) is a propagandist for UKIP who has returned with a new username.

Either way these posts attempting to dominate our discussions by inundating us with barrages of disinformation are best ignored.

Thanks Lemongrove, Petra, Nigglynellie, Smileless2012, Joelgran, and anyone else on the same page as we are.

All domestic goddess stuff completed!!
Extra couple of lbs on the hips with the cake, but it was nice.

Perhaps we can all support each other and enjoy the debate, without feeling it's a waste of time. I wish I had found Gransnet a long time ago. My sister put me onto it, and she is correct, a lot of good quality grey matter out there.

Allygran1
All I have to say is: where have you been all this time
I never gave in, but I found that keep hitting my head against a brick wall was beginning to hurt ?

Allygran Yes, extra tea and cake for you.
Not bullied, am made of sterner stuff, more a case of can’t be bothered anymore than anything else.
All your points are very well put.

Good grief. Well I voted to remain and still wish to do so. Despite the lengthy posts of Allygran1, I still maintain that we are far, far better off staying in Europe. I will not go into the reasons here, as many have already listed them. I am not an enthusiastic supporter of the actual monolith of the EU administration but I strongly support the principles and ideas behind the EU. As to what we pay, especially in relation to other donors; well, I have paid NIC all my life, have also been fortunate to have had little call on the NHS, I am happy about this and do not shout foul if another person needs expensive care or treatment which I am theoretically paying for. A clumsy analogy perhaps, but I hope it explains how I feel.

Fantastic posts Allygran1. I agree with everything you say, but could never have put it so clearly and so coherently as you have - thank you.

I hope you enjoyed your cup of tea and big cake Allygran you certainly deserve it having made so many balanced and informative posts. Well done.

Just a quick one. I should say that the purpose of my comment about Nigel Farage in the original posting was as an example. I have no intention of defending Nigel Farage. Other than in the context of supporting my original view or to give a balance as I see it.

Before I get on with the domestic chores I just have to answer Varians last para in the post:
"Anyone who seriously thinks Farage did a good job in the EU parliament might have voted for UKIP in the latest elections where the party manged to hold on to three council seats ( they lost 123 )".
You have completely missed the point I was making. Nigel Farage did not stand in the local elections. UKIP stood on getting us out of Europe in the Parliamentary elections and that is what he stood for as a MEP. Clearly he did not need to attend he did the job when he was there and defended the interests of the Country in the EU Parliament.

I should really get my washing in but, one last shot. You mention the common fishing policy:
His voting record while a member of the influential European parliament fisheries committee is utterly dire – over three years, he turned up to one of 42 meetings. Research by Greenpeace shows that during the three major votes on the common fisheries policy, Farage failed to vote in favour of improving the legislation.
The reason he failed to vote in favour of improving the EU legislation is because he did not agree with it. It does nothing for our fishing industry, and I sincerely hope that the Brexit deals are in favour of our fishing industry and the conservation of certain fishing grounds that are being pillaged by other EU Countries fishing fleets. Cod, Haddock and other fish are becoming extinct because of this EU policy. I will get some figures for you but not right now. Must get that washing in it will have to go in the wash again. Then I am having a cup of tea and a big cake.

Lemongrove don't give up, don't be bullied into silence, there is strength in numbers and there are a lot of us who think this way. And can put the information there to support our views.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Varian thanks for this fact. But without looking it up can you name another MEP now this minute.

Stop nit picking and address the real issues.

Thanks lemon grove, most appreciated. There is always a fear these days of telling it as we see it.

Thank you Joelsnan. I am going to have to get my cleaning done, and bring in the washing it's pouring down here.

You really are on a roll Allygran and every word is true.

Good posts Allygran

I am on a roll at the moment, so sorry to hog.
Gerispringer- love this.
You say " vastly more unequal society by those few at the top of the pike- it’s austerity for the majority of us and that’s not stopping anytime soon. As for manufacturing - it’s less than 10% of our economy - we just don’t make stuff anymore - Mrs T saw to that."
Can I take your first point about an unequal society and the wealth is held by a few at the top. You are of course quite correct, however can I put some balance on this.

Have you any view of what an equal society might look like? I spent some small time in Russia on business before they decided that communism didn't work and that the only decent life for people was within the Capitalist system.

Now I should say at the point that I do realise that Capitalism is not a perfect system by any means, but if you can come up with something else at this point in the development of the modernity then I really would like to genuinely hear it.

Back to an equal society. If one uses Communism as perhaps the only example that people turn to in these sorts of debates, then let me tell you what I saw. Equality and the redistribution of wealth are two very different things in my view.

Although I should quickly say, during the revolution in Russia, the state took all the wealth including land and buildings. Now this was in 1912 the world was a different place then, and we cannot judge the past from the present, that is the first rule of sociology, you can comment and be shocked and amazed by the actions of people in the past, but you cannot judge, to do that one would have to be in that temporality which is impossible.

So with that proviso, the redistribution of wealth in Russia lead to everyone being brought down to a basic level of living. The majority were not uplifted to the level of the wealthy. How far do you think the collective wealth of the minority would go if spread across the whole population, and that is not what would happen anyway.

If you own your own home that would become a property of the state, yes, you would be considered wealthy. If you had a car that would have to become property of the people and you would share it with others who had no transport. If you had three bedrooms and only used one, then two would be available for those who sleep on the streets, or in a B & B. Now this is the reality of redistribution of wealth, it means us as well as the very rich at the top. The poor are those without anything, no home, no food, no education, no work, no computer as we all have.

The reality of this sort of idealism is every one is brought to a lower level and that means even those who have had to work their socks off to provide for their families, get a house in the hope that they would leave something for their children. Home ownership would cease.

This brings me to the point about the young of today not being able to afford their own homes, how many of us had to live with our parents for years whilst we saved for a deposit when we first got married. How many of us had two jobs or four in our case we both worked two jobs to get that deposit.

What do people want today. No one gives us anything we have to work for it that is what I was taught. But today, the Government is blamed for everything, someone caught a virus, the Government didn't do enough. I am a student with a student loan, well! You want to go to Uni how do you think they pay the Lecturers.

Do kids really need to live away from home to get an education no they don't. The university system is archaic, and definitely needs to be re thought.

Most minor degrees could be achieved in one year if they worked like Industry that is 9 to 5 every day, rather than perhaps two one hour lecturers and ten weeks terms. Nonsense. But if you want that pay for it, it's your future your income, not mine, why should I pay for it through the Government?

As for Margaret Thatcher, one of her policies, allowed thousands of people who would never have had the opportunity to own their own home buy their council houses. For thousands of our fellow citizens this set them up for a secure future and gave them more money in the property than they ever dreamed of before that opportunity.

Do you know the reason for that, because it was becoming too expensive to maintain housing stocks by local councils. Hence the housing associations one see's now.

As for the destruction of our manufacturing industries. We simply were not at that time competitive and the EU tariff systems had a lot to do with that, as well as the self engradisment of the Trade Unions, who had not developed not evolved. They were essential absolutely essential before legislation on health and safety in the work place, before basic wage, before the protection of industrial tribunals, but became victims of their own success, by getting those basic protections into legislation for the working people.

What do you do when your job is done, retire gracefully or find a new resondetra which they had failed to do in the 1980's.

Manufacturing industries were the victims of globalisation, were we had to compete with cheap labour cost across the world. Our wages were infinitely better than a lot of Countries and the added value just wasn't there in order to compete. Hence things made in Taiwan, China etc.

You will see the results of globalisation in America where the rust belt for one example, literally, has disintegrated communities with all the resulting social problems when the work move to other Countries where the labour cost are lower. This is why Trump is bringing in his higher tariffs, he is not going to let this happen again on his watch to the American people. He is protecting his people and isn't that what all Governments should do, it is what our Government is trying to do.This has happened around the World, ever moving manufacturing companies seeking cheap labour sources.

Why do you imagine that we are developing robots, because we are running out of cheap labour in the next fifty years, someone has to sew the endless throw away garments that we insist on buying, or the plastic shoes, couches etc.

Closing pits where men crawl on the bellies to hack fuel from holes in the earth, how primitive is that. No man or woman should be asked to do work like that in a modern society. They talk about camaraderie if they hadn't had that level of self support, their lives would have been just unbearable.

So both times we have had women Prime Ministers they have both faced massive change challenges, all essential to the progress of this Country into a modern future. The very least we can do is support it.

Change is inevitable, we can do it in two ways in my view, support it and make it work or resist it and be dragged screaming and kicking into the future. I know which I prefer. If you leave a political void, the types that step in are not for our way of life believe me.

Really good posts Allygran
This has all been gone over so many times in GN in the last two years that I had given up posting on it ( in fact I shall leave it all up to you as you do it better.)

Other than Nigel Farage the rest of them just seem to draw the wages and substantial substance payments and we know not how they earn it.

Nigel Farage has the lowest voting attendance record of any active MEP in the European Parliament.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk › News › Politics › Nigel Farage

Nigel Farage has had his MEP salary docked to recoup misspent EU funds
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/12/nigel-farage-eu-salary-docked-claim-misspent-public-funds

His voting record while a member of the influential European parliament fisheries committee is utterly dire – over three years, he turned up to one of 42 meetings. Research by Greenpeace shows that during the three major votes on the common fisheries policy, Farage failed to vote in favour of improving the legislation.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/09/nigel-farage-fishermen-ignored-ukip-brexit

Anyone who seriously thinks Farage did a good job in the EU parliament might have voted for UKIP in the latest elections where the party manged to hold on to three council seats ( they lost 123 )