Repeal the 8th

So Jal, Nellie,ab you all agree that the 8th should be repealed and the real issue is what the scale and scope of whatever legislation replaces it? Thanks,that’s clear now - I thought we’d been discussing the repeal of the 8th. Sorry you’re so baffled about other countries ab - never mind. Jal if you read the posts I think you’ll find that there are anti abortion arguments that go far beyond it being used birth control or being on a whim ( a whim? Bloody hell. WTF)

I didn’t know Afghanistan was RC

Maybe because it will show the catholic church they no longer have complete control of the female population in Ireland.If Ireland can stand up to the church women in other countries can too.

niggly, Jalima, that’s so right, there is no discussion here. I am baffled how the vote in Ireland is going to help women throughout the world too.

As I’ve said before, I’m still waiting for a rational explanation as to why the 8th should not be repealed - what is rational about a de facto complete ban on abortion.
Because no-one seems to think that the 8th should not be repealed but you seem unable to see that maryeliza

nigglynellie Thu 24-May-18 22:00:47
It's a pity that some of us can't discuss or put forward our points of view without other people being so aggressive when stating theirs and by implication decrying anyone else's opinion.

I agree nigglynellie - and the point that some posters are trying to make that they agree under most circumstances - but not to the extent of using abortion as a form of birth control or for a whim - is being completely lost to other posters.

Correction, a healthy foetus over three months. If a later foetus is found to have difficulties or the mothers life is in danger then that's a different matter.

A foetus over three months.

I would never have had an abortion, however, I don't think that my beliefs should be imposed on anyone. I can't believe it is a decision which is taken lightly. If I had a vote I would vote in favour, even though it would be against my personal beliefs.

If a woman has decided she wants an abortion, isn't it better it was carried out by a doctor in a local hospital rather than the woman having to travel to another country or, even worse, having it carried out by some back street butcher.

The 8th is de facto a complete ban on abortion - that’s why I’m asking for the rationale of not supporting the repeal -if you don’t support repeal you accept a ban on abortion. niggly what do you mean by ‘late’ abortion?

The cause for concern for some is abortion on demand

Right to abort , right to die, no regard to the dangers just - it’s my right

I dislike abortion very much, as do most of us, but I do believe that in some circumstances it is the best option.
Women surely have a right to that option?

If I were in the habit of praying I’d be praying for repeal. The situation at the moment is so shocking. Nobody likes abortion, but sometimes it is the lesser evil.

Not many years ago, it would have been impossible to believe that Ireland would vote in favour of same-sex marriage, but they did. The country must have changed so much. I shall be surprised and very shocked if they don’t vote Yes.

You're right old meg, and that is what makes a debate on this subject so very difficult. I think it's not only a matter of opinion, but also a matter of what you truly believe. Getting a balance is for some virtually impossible.

Those in favour of abortion often suggest the debate centres upon when the foetus becomes sufficiently human to have the right to life.

Opponents believe the foetus is never anything other than human from conception, and therefore has a right to life from this time.

It's a key point in the debate, especially for those involved in drafting laws regulating abortion.

Everyone agrees that adult human beings have the right to life. Some people would say that the fertilised cell resulting from conception does not have the right to life. Therefore the right to life is acquired sometime in between those two points, and the big question is 'when?'

It's sometimes put in another way as the question "when does life begin?" referring to the sort of life that we regard as precious.

Unfortunately there's no agreement in medicine, philosophy or theology as to what stage of foetal development should be associated with the right to life.

That isn't surprising, because the idea that there is a precise moment when a foetus gets the right to live, which it didn't have a few moments earlier, feels very strange.

And when you look closely at each of the suggested dates, they do seem either arbitrary or not precise enough to decide whether the unborn should have the right to live.

Nonetheless, as a matter of practicality many abortion laws lay down a stage of pregnancy after which abortion is unlawful (because the foetus has a right to life), and the dates chosen are usually based on viability.

No one on here has suggested that a complete ban on abortion is acceptable, but some of us feel that it should be with caveats. I feel that should be the position with abortion in the UK. The idea of late abortion of a healthy foetus does not sit happily with me. In fact for me it is the murder of a baby. A nurse friend involved in a late abortion was so deeply upset at the outcome, she moved to another branch of nursing sooner than participating in this again. Surely adoption at this stage is a better option?

I never said only my posts were rational but putting words in people’s moutg’s is a common tactic on GN rather than discussing a point rationally. I still say that a healthy foetus's right to life cannot be an absolute and cannot trump the rights of the mother to bodily autonomy. And words fail me if you cannot see the relevance of the easy availability of free contraception in this debate. As I’ve said before, I’m still waiting for a rational explanation as to why the 8th should not be repealed - what is rational about a de facto complete ban on abortion.

Yes Maryeliza I do. And only your posts are rational? You first concerns were Women’s rights and you dismissed a healthy baby’s right to life . Then you moved onto a few very tragic happenings but still you ignore a child right to life. Now you have moved onto contraception . Impossible to discuss all this with you, your right everyone else is wrong. That is not a sensible discussion.

So what’s not rational niggly - everything I’ve said is true - perhaps because you don’t ‘like’ abortion you don’t like uncomfortable truths about the effects of the 8th. Do you think the 8th should stay? If do, what are the rational grounds for that? I haven’t seen one rational post on here as to why the 8th should not be repealed

From an article published only las year

Though the sale of contraceptives is now legal in Ireland, this does not render them accessible. Unlike in some EU countries where birth control is subsidized or free, contraceptives in the Republic come at a cost that may further exclude young and/or disadvantaged women from access. In some cases, for those who qualify for Drugs Payment Schemes, the pill itself may be affordable but the regular GP visits required to obtain prescriptions may not be.

Further, past censorship of comprehensive reproductive information enacted by the Catholic Church is reflected in the limitations to the sexuality and reproductive education courses in Irish schools today. A press release issued by the Crisis Pregnancy Programme cited a survey of young Irish women (18 to 25 years-old), the findings of which indicated an insufficient knowledge of participants’ own fertility. Authors of the study went on to assert that sex education in Irish schools is “inadequate and too biological, too narrow and too late.”

Of Irish women, rates of abortion are highest among 20 to 24 year-olds, approximately 80% of whom are single. Arguably, accessible contraception and comprehensive information could reduce its occurrence. Thus, in a country that continues to criminalise abortion, why does the State not strive to counter its necessity by providing adequate information regarding and access to preventative measures (i.e. contraceptives)? As former Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, framed it in 1979, the state of reproductive rights and education in Ireland continues to be “an Irish solution to an Irish problem.”

It's a pity that some of us can't discuss or put forward our points of view without other people being so aggressive when stating theirs and by implication decrying anyone else's opinion. This is a very emotive subject which I personally would liked to have discussed rationally, but that's clearly not possible. Such a shame!

Do you want the current situation to remain in Ireland ab.

And you do ab?

But am I right that you have to be 17 and it’s not free? Also ordering the abortion pills on line is illegal isn’t it?

Just a bit of clarification- contraception is not hard to get nowadays in Ireland. All types, including morning-after pill are easily available. A lot of women are ordering abortion pills on-line and taking without medical supervision, which is one reason for the referendum to remove the ban on abortion and introduce laws to regulate it.