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Grenfell Tower enquiry

(203 Posts)
MawBroon Tue 05-Jun-18 09:33:16

Just as I thought the enquiry into the disaster could not get any more heart-rending, it seems that as well as inadequate fire safety measures, a valuable 30 minute window when residents could possibly have escaped was lost due to poor advice.
It just gets worse.

Panache Tue 05-Jun-18 09:56:43

It makes for heart breaking reading for us all,whilst I cannot begin to understand how absolutely dreadful this enquiry, deeply going into every little area in greatest of detail, must be to those survivors,whilst even so much worst for those whom actually lost their dear ones ..........and now read how they could well have been saved.

The stuff of nightmares indeed.

tanith Tue 05-Jun-18 10:55:34

Some of those who made the decisions that night must be horrified at the outcome of the choices they made. One would certainly hope so anyway.
I’m not talking about politicians or council officials, builders but those on the ground making decisions in the melee that must of ensued for the first minutes and hours.

goldengirl Tue 05-Jun-18 10:56:01

And the powers that be appear to be buck passing like mad. It makes one wonder what other buildings are in a similar state?
Lessons are do NOT appear to being learned!

mostlyharmless Tue 05-Jun-18 11:34:33

I can’t think how they are going to apportion blame for the tragic Grenfell fire. There were so many factors at work.
Cladding not tested for fire resistance, rising main for the fire brigade not working, gas installation badly retro fitted,
smoke extraction system not working, windows with flammable parts, doors that weren’t fire resistant, apart from the original faulty fridge freezer.
“Stay in your flat” fire brigade advice would only have been workable for a fire that was quickly extinguished.
Were regular fire inspections taking place?

GrannyGravy13 Tue 05-Jun-18 21:24:29

Am I the only person who has not heard what happened to the guy who's fridge started the fire? Who supposedly knocked on his neighbours door to warn them, who had a packed case with him, and his wife and child/ children had gone away a few days earlier??

Driving past Grenfell it really brings home the logistics that the emergency services were up against.

Mistakes or should I say wrong judgements were made on the night, innocent people lost their lives totally unacceptable in the 21st century.

Equally unacceptable are the cases (8 so far ) of people making false claims of lost love ones /belongings. Tax payers money being spent on those crooks, hope they get the longest jail term available.

lemongrove Tue 05-Jun-18 21:56:46

Never heard anything about the man you mention Grannygravy but probably the authorities have (I hope.)
There were so many reasons/circumstances that led to this tragedy, a catologue of errors that made it unavoidable in the end.

Eloethan Wed 06-Jun-18 00:32:42

It's a terrible thought isn't it that probably most of those people could have saved themselves if they had just ignored the advice and got out.

I do feel sorry for whoever gave the instructions to residents to stay in their flats. Presumably they were just following the laid down procedures.

What is really disgraceful is the number of serious safety issues that have already been reported, apart from the obvious one of the cladding and its installation. I still can't understand how there were no ladders tall enough to reach the upper storeys - particularly when it is the case that lots of blocks of flats do not have sprinklers fitted. I believe it was reported that much taller ladders are available but the fire service didn't have them.

There was an item on the London news a couple of months ago saying that this cladding is also on some privately owned, or partly privately owned, blocks. Private owners are apparently expected to pay to get the cladding removed and it is extremely expensive to do so. One man had bought a £1 million flat in docklands, overlooking the river but, because the block is covered in this cladding, a valuation he commissioned said his flat is now only worth £100,000.

Hopefully at some point it will be determined who is now responsible for removing the cladding and tidying up the exterior. I don't see why councils or owners should have to pay for this remedial work. The cladding, it seems, is not fit for purpose. I suppose, though, that there will be a lengthy period during which various people - cladding manufacturers, cladding sales companies, cladding installers, etc. etc. - litigate against each other to try and avoid taking on the responsibility.

Busset135 Wed 06-Jun-18 09:54:47

The advice for people to stay inside their flats, would have been perfectly reasonable , had the other precautions been what they should. Now people have to live with that on their conscience

paddyann Wed 06-Jun-18 09:57:02

there will be a whitewash ..there always is in cases like this .The council will say its not their fault and so on down the line.At the end of the day the folk involved will be seen as nuisances who keep nit picking and as they aren't out of "the top drawer" they will be dismissed as too stupid to understand.Its what's expected and if it plays out any other way I will be shocked and amazed.No one will accept responsibility and no one will go to jail .

dragonfly46 Wed 06-Jun-18 10:00:59

I find it very hard to watch but make myself as these poor people should not be forgotten. I was shocked the other day when someone who I thought should know better said 'well of course they were all immigrants'! As if that should make a difference but unfortunately I think this is an outcome of Brexit!

chezza1 Wed 06-Jun-18 10:02:29

MyOH lived most of his life in London tower blocks and whenever there was a fire in another flat it was usual practice to be told to stay indoors. I think the chap who lived in the flat where it started ran out to warn neighbours and left his door open. I don't think blame can be put at the doors of those who gave the instructions to stay. I think the blame lays with those who didn't maintain the building as it should have been. Proper fire doors should have blocked off where the fire was and those who decided to cover the outside with cladding to make the concrete block look better for the posher residents in the neighbourhood.

maryeliza54 Wed 06-Jun-18 10:03:54

GrannyGravy no it’s not equally unacceptable - what a truly wicked thing to post - that demonstrates a very skewed set of values when a long and horrendous catalogue of failures and the deaths of 72 people is equated to some criminals cheating the system. I see you also seem to be into conspiracy theories. I’m just keeping off GT threads - they never end well.

Blinko Wed 06-Jun-18 10:05:13

I still can't understand how there were no ladders tall enough to reach the upper storeys - particularly when it is the case that lots of blocks of flats do not have sprinklers fitted. I believe it was reported that much taller ladders are available but the fire service didn't have them.

I was working in a 24 storey building when a fire broke out on the 8th floor. It was in the 70s during the firefighters' strike. The army turned up with a green goddess (a truck with a hosepipe for those who were too young to remember them) and soon realised their inadequacy to deal with the fire. Fortunately all ended well.

There were certainly no ladders anywhere near long enough to service 24 floors. I can't imagine trying to descend by ladder from that height, especially carrying children.

I'm not sure ladders are the answer even nowadays. Dry and/or wet risers are the thing. I believe.

Bridgeit Wed 06-Jun-18 10:11:35

Grannygravy is stating facts.

knspol Wed 06-Jun-18 10:16:25

Similar wrong advice on 9/11 when people were told to go back into the building. Seems advice from 'professionals' shouldn't always be heeded but how do we know which advice is correct???

MaizieD Wed 06-Jun-18 10:26:28

So is her story of the guy whose fridge started the fire is a 'fact', Bridgeit?

Without really having heard it before it sounds to me like a prime conspiracy theory. I expect he was a Muslim, too, in some versions.

Am willing to be corrected...

Bridgeit Wed 06-Jun-18 10:32:21

As far as I am aware from the news etc ,I expect you can look it up to verify it .

Bridgeit Wed 06-Jun-18 10:35:34

they are discussing now on Itv

mostlyharmless Wed 06-Jun-18 10:38:19

These concrete blocks of flats were designed so that each flat could contain or resist a fire. Fire shouldn’t be able to spread from flat to flat easily so staying put was safer than everyone trying to evacuate at the same time down one staircase.
But the building improvements over the years that introduced plastic windows, flammable cladding, new doors that weren’t fire resistant, holes drilled between flats for gas pipes, new ventilation outlets all compromised the original design as we now know.
The idea was that everyone stayed in their flat until the Fire Brigade arrived to assess the situation and tackle the fire. This “stay put” policy will need to be reviewed now.

Anniebach Wed 06-Jun-18 10:40:30

I did read of the man whose fridge started the fire alerting neighbours.

If very high ladders are of no use why do other fire stations have them.

what we have heard so far I don’t think one single action can be singled out.

maryeliza54 Wed 06-Jun-18 10:42:33

GG is not stating facts at all - she is repeating rumours and lies and also giving a morally questionable opinion on the equivslence between criminal behaviour and the deaths of 72 people and the actions which led to that. The enquiry is discussing the fridge issue today so until we’ve heard some FACTS from that, perhaps some people could put their dog whistles away. <sigh> this is why I hate GF threads

Magrithea Wed 06-Jun-18 10:51:37

Panache those who survived or lost loved ones will be helped by this enquiry if everything is done properly. Yes, it will be traumatic but if they get 'closure' then it's done it's job properly

maryeliza54 Wed 06-Jun-18 10:56:25

Live from the enquiry (Guardian)

'Nasty lie' to report Kebede packed a bag before fleeing fire

Rajiv Menon QC, representing Behailu Kebede, in whose flat the fire started, begins by saying that Kebede had been living in flat 16 for 25 years when he was woken by a fire alarm.

He acted quickly and banged on bed room doors of his neighbours on the fourth shouting “fire fire”.

All he had on him were his clothes and phone. He left without his shoes or wallet or car keys.

It was “nasty lie” to falsely report that Kebede packed a suitcase before leaving, Menon said.

maryeliza54 Wed 06-Jun-18 10:59:58

So well done GG