If there was another EU referendum...

It certainly is Mawbroon. And the poor young Liberal who just had a baby and made sure she was paired with another MP, a Tory, who should have abstained to vote to balance for her absence- defied an honorable and firm tradition and voted all the same. Shameful. So had the 2 oher Lib Dems not been fooled by promises from Labour MPs, and then the young mum - that would have been another 3 votes.

This and other threads on the EU referendum remind me of Wendell Berry's words about "forethought of grief". We "tax our lives" with it a lot it seems.

c/f The Peace of Wild Things by Wendell Berry

It is appalling to think that we may be punished on the assumption that as we are old, we must have voted leave. Unfortunately it is not just the leavers that will pay the price if we leave, it will be all of us. The best we can do is hope that the madness can be stopped in time.

Article 50 can be revoked, or possibly it could be extended to make up for the time squandered while the government negotiated with itself. Then we might be able to see the implications of whatever deal TM can get the EU to accept and put it back to the people with the option of staying in.

I genuinely believe that this Brexit disaster and this governments inability to even get negotiations started in over two years is now threatening to bring disorder and perhaps even violence to Britains streets.

There are now media reports of arguments and fights breaking out in workplaces as people are presented with growing worries surrounding the future of their jobs.

It should also be remembered that many younger persons view the matter as the older generation gambling with their futures in the referendum vote.

The above certainly was not the full case, but in this argument now it is becoming what is perceived rather than what is reality. In that many see this matter as an intergenerational one, young v old.

This from today’s DT, with apologies for a cut and paste job (but not too long)

Theresa May’s immediate future as Prime Minister was saved by four Labour MPs last night as she avoided a critical Commons defeat on Brexit by the narrowest of margins.
Twelve Remain-supporting Tory rebels defied their party by voting with Labour as they tried to force the Government to seek a customs union with the EU
Conservative whips had warned their MPs that if Mrs May lost the knife-edge vote her authority would have been so badly undermined that it would trigger a general election
The mutineers refused to budge, reportedly telling the whips to “sod off”, but the Government won with a majority of 307-301, thanks to four Labour Brexiteers who defied their own whip. Had they obeyed Jeremy Corbyn, Mrs May would have lost by two votes

It’s a mess isn’t it?

Thank you Ally for voicing my thoughts so much better than I ever could. I find it very difficult to gather together all the many reasons I had and have for voting Leave. Petra’s post gave one reason. The EU is slowly degenerating and likely to collapse. I don’t want the UK to be caught up in this and to a certain extent think we can better help our friends in Europe if we’re on the outside and strong when it happens. And we are stronger than the Remainers think. Strangely, investment is up in this part of the country, especially in technology.

Petra only just read your response petra Tue 03-Jul-18 20:42:18, sorry I missed what you said then. What a great post. Concise and to the point, so deftly ignored of course because the facts you produced cannot be argued against.

Varian my guess is that Politicians don't look at Gransnet to see what we are thinking. Google and Facebook do and put up our comments for all to see, but my guess is that Politicians won't bother. Activists will as we all know.

Jura, my feelings on the statement you made "split their families - and how many now feel very uncomfortable going to visit parents of sibblings or have them come to say". Astounds me! What sort of family structures can be so easily destroyed by Brexit, not very strong ones. Lemongroves response is one I fully sign up to.

I should also say Jura that I have never heard a single person either remain or leave voter say anything about their depths of feeling being such that it has divided their family, disagree yes, split and divide never. It seems that there is the real world and then there must be an artificial Brexit bubble in which a few people reside which you so often quote or comment about.

BlueBelle, it is the EEA Country's that are not doing well. The EU being a trading organisation pretending to be a democratically elected Government is failing. If we remain tied into "ever closer union", rather than just free trade, within just a few years we shall be dragged into a financial and trading disaster. Germany and France financial prediction by the IMF for the next two years at least is very poor. Italy is on the brink of bankruptcy as of course Greece is already and being sustained only by massive loans which it can never repay, but the EU sustains it rather than admit Greece is unable to comply with EU rules and regulations.
There is high unemployment, social exclusion in the big cities of EEA Country's due to free movement of people from poorer Countries, placing pressure on unplanned housing, health care, education and infrastructures, creating enormous discontent, and divisions. Denmark known for it's liberal attitudes is suffering from legal migrant fatique and is reacting to this. All in all, the UK is doing well. The reason for leaving the EU is simply that as a trading organisation they imposes social regulations and directives using the single trading market to control member States.
The rigid doctrine, tight unbending controls, regulations and directives, protectionist policies, and now the founding of an EU Military under the guise of "peace keeping" encroaching now upon NATO. These are the very things that the EU was formed to prevent, Militarisation of Europe and extreme far Left and far Right politics, ironically created by the EU.

So if your looking for reasons to leave the EU, look to the EU, analyse, investigate, ask question, look behind the facade to see what exactly the EU is. There you will find the reasons why the UK is leaving.

We are not leaving Europe, we are leaving the EU. Why one would think that friendships will be affected baffles me. We are leaving a trading organisation not a Nation State. There are no citizens, other than the artificial ones created by the EU, when they decided that 28 Nations would no longer be citizens of their own Country but would be EU Citizens, how could we fall for that!

Remain remain remain voted to stay with my European friends and will always vote to remain We were doing well now we are fxxxxx up completely

Only rather stupid people have allowed the vote to split their families.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense doesn’t go hammer and tongs with relatives about politics.
I do hope those older people ( like ourselves) don’t save their money to pass on to thankless children, but use it to have cataracts removed privately, rose tinted ones or otherwise.
Glad am not on FB from everything I hear about it.

Lemongrove: 'I expect there are many 50+ Voters on GN who don’t fit the old Socialist pro Remain sterotype as well mcem come to that, or the old Lib Dem sandal wearing brigade etc.'

you are quite right, that is exactly what statistics have shown.

Tonight on a FB remain group, there was a huge number of responses about how the vote has split their families - and how many now feel very uncomfortable going to visit parents of sibblings or have them come to say. One sentence stuck and made me laugh. 'Rose tinted cataracts' ... priceless.

I expect there are many 50+ Voters on GN who don’t fit the old Socialist pro Remain sterotype as well mcem come to that, or the old Lib Dem sandal wearing brigade etc.
Justine Greening is one of those MP’s that says one thing a few days ago and then comes out with the complete opposite in less than a week, what a hypocrite the woman is.
She is certainly no loss.

I would like to think that politicians look at gransnet, at least from time to time and take our views on board, but I think it is unlikely.

They mostly have assistants who are straight out of doing a politics degree at some university where I doubt checking GN would ever have been on the curriculum.

We wish...

some are still flogging dead unicorns for sure, with their rose tinted glasses on and blue passports.

NfkDumpling
Because there aren't any polls
The Daily express/Mail would give figures stating the exact opposite.

Well varian despite comments to the contrary maybe you haven't been flogging a dead horse!
Do you think Justine G and Anna S have been peeking at GN and have realised that there's many a 50+ voter who doesn't fit the 'older Tory pro brexit voter' stereotype?

They use carefully selected samples, balanced to reflect the general population.

I've never been asked either, but I still think the polls are worth noting.

Why do these opinion polls never ask me or anyone I know?

The latest Opinium Poll shows that 50% of voters think the electorate should be given another referendum on any final deal that is bought back from Brussels by May, against 33% who do not.

People are split, however, on whether the choice on the ballot paper should be between accepting the deal on offer and leaving without any deal at all or between accepting the deal on offer and staying in the EU, both supported by 25% of those asked.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/14/labour-opens-up-biggest-lead-over-tories-since-general-election

Times columnist Rachel Sylvester puts forward the view that Labour’s logical choice is a people’s vote on Brexit.

It makes sense for Corbyn to align himself with Momentum and the trade unions rather than Rees-Mogg and Farage.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-s-logical-choice-is-a-people-s-vote-dkns2pdcr

You wouldn't sign a bill without checking it first, so why should the Brexit deal be any different?

The People's Vote campaign seeks to ensure that the government's Brexit deal is put before the country in a public vote so that we can decide if a decision that will affect our lives for generations makes the country better or worse off.

Good deal or bad deal, it's definitely a big deal - and that's why it should be put to a People's Vote.

www.peoples-vote.uk/about

I have to admire your dogged persistence varian

Let's just hope enough good folk see sense in time.