Another one bites the dust - Davis resigns

Tony Benn was quite right Annie IMHO

So, MaizieD it’s quite all right for you to do long cut and pastes but not for Allygran !
I thought that may well be the case.

Someone has passed to me the text of an interview on the World at One which discusses this notion of 'sovereignty:

Start

Sarah Montague (SM)

Theresa May's former Ambassador to the EU, Sir Ivan Rogers, has described the the plan agreed at Chequers on Friday as “representing the biggest loss of sovereignty since 1973”. It proposed that after Brexit the UK keeps the same rules as the EU for industrial goods and agrifoods so the UK can stay in that part of the single market. Professor Vernon Bogdanor (PVB) is the leading expert on the British constitution. He is professor of Government at Kings College London and I asked him if he thought Sir Ivan was right.


PVB: Either we diverge completely from the European Union, in which case we don't get frictionless trade, or we align ourselves with the European Union, in which case you may ask, what is the point of Brexit. Now if we align ourselves it's true that parliament is sovereign in a technical sense, that parliament can always alter the alignment, but if it does it looses frictionless trade. So we have in a way the shadow of parliamentary sovereignty but we've lost the actual substance of being able to do what we like and we also have no role outside the European Union in making rules by which we will be bound.


SM: So it is the biggest loss of sovereignty since '73?


PVB: It is a loss of of sovereignty in the sense of giving us leeway to do what we might like to do. If we are tied to the rules of the European Union without having a vote on what these rules actually are.


SM: So you either accept that or the alternative is a hit on the economy?


PVB: Well the alternative is a global Britain. That means trying to become a global, free-trade hub, like Singapore or New Zealand, which means unilateral reduction of tariff, deregulation, radical reductions in personal and corporate taxation, to encourage entrepreneurs to come to Britain. A kind of revenge of Margaret Thatcher from beyond the grave if you like; a forth term of Margaret Thatcher. Now that might work in the long run but it would cause a lot of disruption in the short-run and Patrick Minford, one of economists who's advocated that, has said it would mean the end of British manufacturing industry so it's by no means a painless alternative. But there's a certain logic to it. Now the governments position is that there is a third way by which, somehow, you can align yourself partially with the European Union, while still retaining the freedom to have trade agreements with other countries. It's not yet clear whether the European Union would accept that.


SM: But do you accept that there might be that third way?


PVB: If you're resigning from a tennis club, because you think the subscription is too high and you don't like the rules and then say “I'd like to play on the tennis courts on the same basis as those who are members”, it might be a bit difficult.


SM: The criticism that this third way represents a loss of sovereignty - there been a suggestion from one EU official that “there is no such thing as a sovereign country any more. It's an illusion the Brits are all chasing but it has gone.” Do you have some sympathy with that; that actually, in the world as it is today, everybody pools sovereignty.


PVB: We have to distinguish between parliamentary sovereignty and national sovereignty. It terms of parliamentary sovereignty we will recapture that, but national sovereignty is very difficult for a medium sized country like Britain. To exert influence you have to work with other people and that may involve a sacrifice of sovereignty it's certainly true. America doesn't have to sacrifice her sovereignty, and Russia doesn't or China, but we're not quite in that position. Perhaps we were in the 19th Century when we had an empire.

End

I have always found the Leavers' notion of 'sovereignty' difficult to understand in view of the fact that any international agreement, whether it be a trade deal, aviation regulations or trading under WTO rules, involves some loss of sovereignty just because, as Prof. Bogdanor points out national sovereignty is very difficult for a medium sized country like Britain. To exert influence you have to work with other people and that may involve a sacrifice of sovereignty it's certainly true.

To me, the huge risk involved in cutting loose from the EU seems utterly pointless when it would only involve regaining nominal 'sovereignty' and would certainly involve tremendous hardship for much of the population.

I've also never been able to understand the assumption that 27 other distinct and proudly individual countries would be any more willing to surrender their sovereignty than the UK is.

and when you think of their backgrounds too - The Viscount (Westminster School) meets the son of a carpenter, grammar school boy.

Yes, I thought it was too!

Thank you Jalima, most interesting

Quite usual for MP’s to have respect for members of other parties but not agree with their politics Fennel

When Ted met Tony:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/mar/22/conservatives.parliament

Yes, that's true,Ann - didn't know but just looked it up.
Seemed to respect him anyway.

Sorry, Tony

Tiny Benn was against us being in the EU

Tony Benn on Britain the European Community:

I am against] the Treaty of Rome which entrenches laissez faire as its philosophy and chooses bureaucracy as its administrative method.
"Britain's continuing membership of the [European] Community would mean the end of Britain as a completely self-governing nation."
Edward Heath, who sold out Britain's interests to the Common Market and gave our sovereignty away without our consent—with support of Mr Thorpe and the Liberals—is not entitled to wave the Union Jack to get himself out of the mess.

In his own words.

Fennel, Tony Benn admired Edward Heath who took us into the EU!!!

The pound was rallying Monday even as analysts warned the U.K. government was in danger of collapse after Brexit Secretary David Davis’s resignation. The British currency may have been drawing buyers thanks to comments from Davis, in which he suggested Prime Minister Theresa May ought to hold on to her job.......

“Today and the next few days will be key for Theresa May’s survival and the buoyancy of the pound,” said Jasper Lawler, head of research at London Capital Group, in a note Monday. Yet, even if Theresa May does manage to ride the course of this latest Brexit upheaval and remain at the helm with a united party behind her, the big task is to convince the EU that they should progress with negotiations on this latest proposal,” Lawler added.

“Any sterling gains will be capped until there is more clarity from the EU over the viability of the option, which will only come once the white paper has been published later this week.”

www.marketwatch.com/story/pound-jumps-after-brexit-secretary-quits-heres-why-analysts-see-the-next-few-days-as-critical-for-uk-2018-07-09

What a shambles now mp are having to think and work instead of just gliding along blaming other parties for all things going wrong , why does football have to be brought into every debate not everyone is that bothered hope they win but it's only a game there aremore important things in the world !!

Times columnist, ardent brexiteer and climate change denier, Melanie Phillips called for Nigel Farage to be made Prime Minister

www.indy100.com/article/melanie-phillips-nigel-farage-twitter-uk-prime-minister-brexit-theresa-may-leave-eu-8439161

I wouldn't think any politician of any colour would actually want the PM's job right now. Talk about a poison chalice!

moi aussi Fennel

Nellie
"Suddenly having to take over Brexit would I think be Labourers worse nightmare!! Which could explain the deafening silence coming from the opposition benches!!!"
Too true. Plus Corbyn admired Tony Benn who never wanted to join in the first place.
I can see both sides - I'm a Pisces, 2 fish swimming in opposite directions.

Well said quizqueen.

As the months have turned into years the farce has deepened. The lack of backbone displayed by everyone concerned, and the pointless, silly harping of the opposition have brought me to the point where I don't want to read, or hear , another word about this subject. It is as it is, and we will get what the politicians decide. Enough - I'm off to do something lighthearted and joyful - cuddle the new puppy.

Yes, sure enough Boris the Buffoon went next. I can't help but see a vision of Cameron and Osborne's smug faces. They knew exactly what they were doing slinking away like rats from a sinking ship. Theresa May has had to take on one of the toughest situations for decades.

This debacle is brilliant material for a drama production. The Danish series 'Borgen' was very popular. I think we can top that.

I’m not sure any Labour shadow cabinet members have resigned since November quizqueen and an not sure why that means we can’t comment on the shambles of the party that is supposed to be running the country. Labour doesn’t really have to do much at the moment, just sit back and watch the Tories fighting amongst themselves. ( I’m not a Labour supporter anyway so why should I comment on the Labour Party when we’ re discussing the incompetent members of the Government? )

pheasant75
I have, for years. I sometimes wish I hadn't because I now can't un-know what I do. I wish I'd stayed ignorant, far less frustrating.