Given up on Brexit

I absolutely agree Tigger. I agree with Grannygranby's post too.
Eezybee we have friends who voted leave and now wish they hadn't seeing the ensuing mess. It works both ways. Who knows what would happen if we had another referendum? It would certainly be very close again. Unfortunately the country is split down the middle. We have Cameron to thank for that.

I agree with Lucky legs. I think May should have followed the will of the majority which is what the referendum was for to find the will of the majority. being in or out of EU is a dichotomous decision and she can't be half in and half out as she is trying to do because she is not following will of majority and electorate will punish Conservatives come the next election for not respecting referendum result. She has jeopardized the ability of UK to do trade deals with other countries that involve agriculture as we will have to keep aligned with EU rule book which is in fact akin to staying in single market and full white paper only states 'UK will have opportunity to' gain some more fishing not UK is taking back its fishing territories as Iceland and Pharaoh Islands do. May has betrayed electorate.

I am certainly hoping that we agree no deal and so will default to WTO rates which would mean we could trade with countries like New Zealand who are saying if May agrees common rule book with EU they do not want to trade to EU rule book and so we will lose their trade deal.

I'm a staunch leaver and I think May is treading a narrow path and remainers seem to be made up from the establishment and monied people who cannot accept we voted to leave - nothing else - we voted to leave. The EU don't want us to leave so of course they will make it difficult, and negotiating is never easy. I always expected it to be choppy but didn't think the likes of Gina Miller and George Soros getting in the news would happen constantly. We never hear of the entrapaneurs who think it will be great and open up the world for us. We never hear of the EU army or the future countries that are going to be asked to join.
I've researched the history of Germany's wanting a united Europe and it doesn't make good reading.

I don't accept that 17m out of 47m (the electorate in 2016) is the majority . You would not be able to change the constitution of your local gardening society with 17 votes out of 47.

Cameron is the author of this nonsense. If he had to call a referendum it should have required a minimum support of say 66% of the electorate to cause such disastrous upheaval. When May found herself PM after the fiasco, the proper thing would have been to go back to the EU to see if she could get better terms to Remain than Cameron.

She should then have got the agreement of her cabinet before triggering Article 50 so we would not run out of time to negotiate. After reaching a deal, the next logical, and democratic step would be a People's Vote on accepting the terms of brexit or Remaining in the EU.

Varian you say recent polls have consistently shown a small percentage lead for remain. I have found the opposite, especially since Mays soft Brexit plan.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5936053/Now-Britons-want-leave-EU-nearly-15-increase-referendum-survey-claims.html

Do not give up on this country. So many pessimists around. Think positive... I am sick and tired of the negativity that is being put out into the ether.

Polls to June 2018 by the National Centre for Social Research, a non-partisan body shows Remain in the lead.

whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/

moorlikeit suggests that we should have stayed and reformed from within. This is just not a viable prosposition - for fundamental changes to happen everyone would have to be in agreement.
Many of the member countries, and prospective countries, of the EU are in a dire financial position and would NEVER agree to any changes to their gravy train. My DH sometimes had to work in Brussels (raising funding for worthwhile EU water engineering projects) and found the whole process exhausting, mainly due to the relentless bureacracy, box ticking meetings, and to every document needing translation into every conceivable EU language. Bureaucrats, officials and MEP's are the real gainers in the organisation.
As for remaining versus leaving, those who shout the loudest are those running big businesses or taking their dividend income from them, they have their own gravy train and want it to continue.
People hesitate to mention immigration for fear of being called racist. Big businesses want to continue to pay peanuts for labour so they want unlimited immigration to continue. Meanwhile our bill for our own citizens who choose not to work goes up and up. Perhaps we should consider employing UK citizens? Under any future immigrations system it should be perfectly possible to bring in skilled labour from overseas if it is needed, whilst keeping out less skilled labour and employing our own citizens.

Please tell us Theoddbird what, in relation to the brexitshambles, we have got to be positive about?

Boris Johnson and chums lied to get people to vote Leave. They also broke the law by over-spending.
Even folk who voted Out in 1974 and 2016 are now saying that this chaos is not what they wanted, and perhaps we should think again.
Regarding privilege, The Cabinets since 2010 have usually contained 20+ millionaires. Not a lot of understanding there of the needs of the vast majority of the UK population.

What do remainders think is going to happen in the future as part of the EU. We are going down the drain in it. Manufacturing, fish, agriculture is rationed. Immigration has meant my children wages have been capped because if you won’t do the job, someone else will. We have a EU government who has been able to blame the EU for their lack of action and it’s all beginning to unravel. It’s bonkers to have this last minute deliveries . The lorries rolling across our country, clogging up our roads and air. We have given everything away. Of course Germany make the quality stuff, high value items we mainly have the widgets. We are addicted to importing. Especially from the EU. We pay a tariff. I could go on. Nothing wrong with having a trading agreement but if the EU start taxing you direct it will be interesting how people will feel about how it’s dished out. We have company that’s sells a product all over the world and bringing money into th country. We need well educated high skilled workers. The government/ E U have let us down. They are controlled by global business. Even a global US company has tried to gobble us up. Governments need to protect us. We pay all our vast taxes in this country. Mainly spend it in this country, if we can. And we help our children even though they are adults. Rant over.

I've never heard a good word said about the EU over the last 40 years before the referendum, now all Remainers are falling over themselves to suddenly say how much they are in love with it!

The media is so totally biased in favour of Remain in the rush to brainwash everyone into thinking ( as Nigel told Clegg ) that the UK isn't good enough to run its own affairs . They never state what the future could be like if we stay in...changing our currency to the euro, probably having to be part of Schengen, probably losing our rebate but with increased annual dues, joined up armed forces which the UK would end up paying for, having more authority taken away from us by stealth, accepting millions of people who think they have the right to just waltz into other people's country illegally and so on.

It is actually the Remainers who didn't know what they were voting for as it certainly wasn't the status quo as it is now. As a staunch Brexiteer, I knew exactly what I was voting for. I wanted our country to be totally independent to make its own decisions about everything and that includes its surrounding waters just as the rest of the world does outside of the EU. Yes, there will a rocky road ahead but it will be so worth it.

If you research into the history of the Common Market you will see that it was set up mostly by ex Nazis who failed to take control of Europe by war so plotted to do it by other means i.e. firstly through trade to suck countries in and then through developing into a political state from which, apparently, it is almost impossible to escape. That sounds like Communism to me. Rather than just accepting the BBC's word for everything I suggest those of you who voted to remain do some intensive research of your own

Countries such as South Korea, Israel and Mexico managed to get a free trade agreement the EU without any of the strings attached like free movement, law taking etc. but apparently the UK can't have that and you have to ask yourself why.

QuizQueen I agree with your first paragraph. Even if people wanted to remain why did they have to act as if the EU is some kind of utopia. There should have been an honest discussion with people actually listening to each other rather than just saying that we are the stupid side, the old side, the bigoted side. The ECB earned 3bn Euros from the failure of the Greek economy which they are proud of. German banks also did well from it. The EU pushed austerity despite it becoming increasing clear that it was causing real hardship. The trading terms it imposes on third world countries are very unfair. All these things should have been discussed in the press but with the right wing papers making it all about immigration and papers like the Guardian suddenly deciding that the EU can do no wrong there was no intelligent analysis or discussion.

Figures are randomly thrown around often with a strange conclusion - such as the fact that we are more reliant on trade with the EU than they are with us. That is of course true but you then have to look at individual industries and the pressure that they will put on their governments. Will French wine makers want to pay tariffs to sell to us, or Spanish farmers or German car manufacturers? They are playing hardball and Remain keep giving them help.

With you luckylegs9. Totally fed up with both the Conservatives and Labour. I do accept that Brexit is a difficult and complicated issue and Mrs. M. can't please everyone. And its important we do the best we can for the country. But in any other sort of job workers would have to agree to disagree on some matters. Some want a second vote for us regarding Brexit. But if the politicians can't agree on anything and come to some of consensus about what's best for the country, how are the rest of us supposed to decide. And as I've said in a previous post, how can these politicans have the audacity to criticise the running of the NHS when they couldn't run a soup kitchen. I despair.

TM tells Merkel the details of the White Paper before disclosing it here first? Why? It’s out to tomorrow & then David Davis wants to speak in Parliament on Monday outlining his concerns over customs & trade issues. He can spill a few beans now he resigned as a cabinet minister! Interesting to hear what he says & then perhaps GN’ers can comment further when we are presented with some facts, rather than speculation!

PamelaJ I totally agree with you, pity Dave turned out to be a coward!

The lead letter is little more than a confused and rambling mish-mash of political prejudice. The gransnet editors should have exercised their powers of discrimination by launching such a debate via material that demonstrates some level of literacy at the very least. They certainly have a very low opinion of the readership.
A poor show.

I voted to remain, but now, having witnessed the antics of the EU unelected bureaucrats, I would vote to leave.
I echo everything in eazybee’s post of 11.07.

maddyone I have relatives that did as well and now would either not vote or vote Leave. I hope we don't have another referendum because it will cause more unpleasantness but it is not the foregone conclusion that some seem to think.

GABRIELLAG. I must be living in a different country because I cannot see any rise in the people who want to leave and thise who do obviously have their head in the sand! And OP, would love to know why you think Jeremy C had a privileged upbringing!! He didn’t go to Eton or Oxbridge. The one that he doesn’t do is lie! Haven’t decided if it was courage or stupidity to post your post. Would love to know your reasons or leaving and in what way we have benefitted frim the las 2 yrs. we are the laghing stock of Europe. I just hope you live long enough to see the depth of destruction this monumental act of self harm will cause and if you have grand children mthey forgive you and yiur loy. anyone who would want us to be on our own bobbing away in a vast ocean of isolation can only think lije Donald Trump! I could cry when I think of the generation who sacrificed their lives ( or worse who had no choice) for freedom in Europe just to have a buch of loons heralding the Empire days, forget the enormous advantage of peace. I for one am a European , a global citizen,a Briton and I dont mind which order they are in. The one way I can feel ashamed is if anyone takes me for a Brexiteer. I wept after the referendum result and felt deeply deeply ashamed!

Some on this thread have spoken on the " bureaucracy of Europe" or what we call "red tape" here in Britain. However here in the UK we have reduced that red tape without interference from the European Union and what in that have we finished up with, "Grenfell Tower"

It has also been stated in this thread that just in time delivery services (JIT) increase the number of vehicles on Britains roads. In that, the fact is that those JIT delivery schedules actually reduce the number of heavy vehicles on the UK roads substantially and also reduce the cost of the goods they carry to their customers by them not having to carry large amounts of stock.

Britains supermarkets and all other retailers rely entirely on JIT to keep the cost of all we purchase down, and if anyone wishes to see those costs increase substantially just end frictionless trade at the ports.

Isn't it amazing how so many 'poor and uneducated' leave voters are able to put together such informed articulate posts.
Just in case some are confused by my post, it's directed at 'some' remainers who view us as such

Are those leaver who pompously claim to "know exactly what they were voting for" happy with how things are going ? Lots of people hadn't a clue what the EU was, let alone the single market or customs union, or the implications for NI. I've heard the most inarticulate swivel-eyed leavers on the TV and radio frothing about how they voted to " get rid of muslims" and "get our country back". when asked to name one law the EU had' forced' onto the UK which had an impact on their lives, they find it impossible to name one. No-one saying these are typical or the majority of leave voters, but you can't deny they do exist.

I am blown away by all the exaggeration by some posters. Corbyn wants us to be like Russia - are you sure?

The OP's concern about borrowing does not stand up. There are sound economic arguments for spending on infrastructure - creating jobs, improving the housing stock, saving the NHS etc. The policy of austerity is one of the reasons why we have Brexit - people at the bottom of the pile (and those with concern for them) spotted that the bankers and the international finance brokers were laughing all the way to their banks while they were suffering the sacrifices that were "necessary."

The referendum was a political game and it was conducted in the most disgraceful fashion, both in its conception (no rules as to minimum turnout or margin etc.) and the campaigns which preceded it which were totally inappropriate.

TM has completely buggered up the negotiations; and she is on such shaky ground with her party that we are all primed to be ground underfoot because of the weakness of our government.

A general election might not be such a bad thing - the timing would not be great; but it seems to me that we can't be any worse off than we are now with these incompetent negotiators dictating our future.