Stopping discrimination against transwomen

I have never been to the Hampstead swimming ponds, Maw Broon, but I'm told the ladies pond is a very lovely, relaxed environment where women can be naked onshore, if they wish.
That may well change once men become aware that they only have to say "I identify as a woman" at the gate and that they will get straight in.

Although it's unlikely that transmen (natal women) are any threat to men, the visit of ManFriday women to the men's pond caused outrage among the men who were there.

I am very dubious about young children being trans.
There are many videos on YouTube of trans children and it seems to me that many of them are simply not stereotypical male or female but have been told that boys/girls do certain things, wear certain things etc.
They have then been told, by trusted adults, that they can 'become' the other sex and have believed that this is what they need to do.

Azie made an interesting point higher up the thread about the newness of the trans trend. I’ve wondered about that too, and possible causes. I’ve even wondered whether the ingestion of hormones fed to beef cattle, or milk cows, could be influencing human hormones in some way. Esp perhaps since we are now hearing that children under 5 are affected for which, if genuine, there surely has to be an explanation.

Interesting article - but there is a very strong bias in the text.

In a hospital or public pool situation, I fail to see how relevant it is. Women share facilities with men and women who have a potential to be violent, like everyone else- as the text indicates. No difference.

Some stats here, Jura.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/statistics-show-the-difference-in-rates-of-violent-crimes-against-women-committed-by-transwomen-versus-non-transgender-males/

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

Good article Sparklefizz from which a small quote, the 'we' being the group Women's Place:

"The women worried about these changes in the law come from all parties and none. We don’t want to silence the transgender campaigners who dis-agree with us: they have every right to be heard. But they have no difficulty with being heard — since wealthy charities, prominent politicians and media figures make their case frequently and loudly, often while calling for us to keep quiet. The people who run the country hear their voices daily. All we ask is that they have the chance to hear ours too."

Such a thorny issue.
The ramifications regarding single sex wards which have been sought for years and prisons (although I suppose these could be mixed, with a degree of segregation) are one thing, but I refuse to get worked up about Ladies’ or otherwise Bathing Ponds on Hampstead Heath.

This is interesting:

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/transgender-activists-and-the-real-war-on-women/

There are already 3 ponds, men, womens and unisex. Oh are there? I hadn't realised. But even so, I imagine transgender people would take umbrage at not being able to swim with the gender with which they are now aligned. After all, biological women are allowed to swim in the unisex pool and the women's pool. Are transgender women allowed - expected even - to swim in the men's pool as well as the unisex? Surely not!

Sue what kind of crime? Sexual crime? I'd be very interested in any links to that.

Well yes, they do- before surgery too, to make breasts grow.

Do they have hormone treatment to reduce testosterone?

Jura2, you might be interested to learn that transwomen commit crime at the same rate as men. Transwomen are in fact as much (or as little, depending on your POV) a threat to women as men are.

To a previous OP, 80% of transgender women have had no surgery and have their full male 'tackle'.

Yes, Sparklefizz, I totally get that. It is indeed very complicated, and I do not know what the answer is.

And I probably would feel very differently if I did not happen to have got to know all 3 above very well, and their story.

jura2 I agree with what you say above, but as regards your "no.3" you know her back-story and I am sad for her, but (as in all walks of life) there are con people and a man does not have to be on his guard against a woman self-defining as a man, but vice versa ...... it could be very risky.

Look at the conmen and women who came out of the woodwork claiming to have been bereaved by the Grenfell disaster, look at the male prisoners who are self-defining as women to get transferred into a women's prison (I have a relative who works in the Justice System who can tell hair-raising stories of this.) I have great sympathy for those who are genuine, it must be horrendous for them, but I also want women to be safe and protected from predatory men jumping on a bandwagon.

We can never please everybody all of the time with dozens of choices of toilets, hospital wards, open air swimming pools.

OldMeg, yes, this - thanks for your comment.

It is a very difficult issue- like Gillybob, cat. 1 and 2 are fairly easy to accept- 3 less so. But as with many things, we often react with the personal experiences we know, and the people we know who are affected.

I have 3 trans friends. One had the full reversal aged 20. You would never ever know. Small hands and feet, pette, lovely voice, no-one could ever guess. The other is 58 and had the reversal 9 years ago. She is very tall, strong, and still has very much a man's voice. At a Fête some years back, our guest from UK came out of the toilets and said 'there is a pervert in there- disgusting- I was scared'. The poor trans was really upset aand shaken. We have got to know her well since then. She had heard us speak English (no-one else spoke English there... rural Fête in the mountains) and as she speaks good English, had spoken to her to mae her feel welcome. A totally innocent ' welcome to the Fête, hope you are enjoying it ... or btw where are you from' kind of thing. Because she is tall and not a feminine beauty, she gets that reaction a lot, because she can look a bit like a 'tranny', although she has, with the help of her daughter, learnt to dress better and tone down the make up to be more natural.

So the first one could be in a woman's ward, and you'd never know. The second one would also have to be in a woman's ward- and could make some other women feel uncomfortable. Perhaps me too- until I had spoken to her and realised what a nice person she is, and the journey she has gone through.

The third identifies as a woman - but because of massive pressure from her very religious parents, managing the family business, etc- she ony realised this 100% after her parents died. Massive break-down, attempted suicide, anorexia - at 56. She managed to get better- but aged 58, she realised that there was no way she could go through the reversal at ther age. So she has had to accept it would not happen - she dresses clasically, demurely, does not overdo make up in every day life - often wears lovely silk or linen trouser suits with low heels, and a good quality, discreet handbag. But yes - she identifies as a 'she' but she still has all her tackle, in your words. Does that make here a risk to other women- NO, not at all. Men who identify as women, tackle or not- are absolutely no risk to other women, for sure. Certainly a lot less than many other men who are strongly attracted to females.

What the answer is, I do not know. But I'd happily share award, or a WC with either of those 3.

Surely the fact that there is already a unisex pool and this issue has arisen because presumably trans people don't want to use it, rather reinforces the concerns expressed by Azie09 ?

"do people expect the City of London to create a third 'others' pond on Hampstead Heath?"

There already is a pond for mixed genders on Hampstead Heath.

Bluebell - yes the thread said there was a directive from the govt. that all wards should be single gender, but many hospitals haven't got the facilities, or funds, to achieve that target.

For me, it's about credibility as much as discrimination. I struggle to find sympathy or even empathy because I want to know where all these people living in the 'wrong' bodies have been all my life. Even if it's something that once couldn't be spoken about, like homosexuality, I have lived a fairly unconventional life and met a wide range of people from all walks of life but this is new. So it strikes me as a trend, an idea, a psychological affliction, something to be treated with caution, not least because there are dark undertones about motivation. Also, haven't the people who mind for various reasons also got rights?

There are already 3 ponds, men, womens and unisex. As for sharing a hospital ward I wouldn't care as long as they don't snore. Having shared with women who rattle the windows all night and talk very loudly into their mobile all day all I want is peace and quiet in Hospital. So as long as they don't snore I really couldn't care less whether they have their tackle or not, as long as I'm not looking at it.

Likewise, do people expect the City of London to create a third 'others' pond on Hampstead Heath?

It is so difficult for the hospitals, though, isn't it? What do people expect them to do? Provide all male, all female and 'other' wards? Would transgender men and transgender women be comfortable sharing a ward? I would expect them to protest on the grounds of equal rights at the very least! Would fully transitioned transgender women want to share with a biological man who is self-identifying as a woman? It's a minefield.

You might feel uncomfortable knowing there’s a transwomsn who still has her ‘tackle’ as you put it. Imagine if as a woman trapped in a man’s body you actually had that ‘tackle’ attached to you and you felt it was alien to you. Have some sympathy.

Spare a thought about how these transgender people must feel too.

But you wouldn’t be in a mixed ward would you.
You’d be in a women’s ward with a transgender woman in it.
To be blunt would she still have all her tackle?
I think I would find it difficult.
Sorry to the pedants, too many woulds I ?