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Stopping discrimination against transwomen

(31 Posts)
FarNorth Thu 12-Jul-18 16:48:22

"The City of London Corporation has waded into the row over trans women’s rights at Kenwood Ladies’ Pond to help stop other swimmers discriminating against them."

Fennel Thu 12-Jul-18 19:01:24

I read a thread on mumsnet about the rights of trans women when it comes to admission to hospital . In all-womens' wards. Causing disagreements.
Apparently comes from enforcement of the Equalities Act 2010
Some groups more militant than others.

Bridgeit Thu 12-Jul-18 21:12:15

Not sure what I think about that,but it is not unusual these days to have mixed wards which I wouldn’t personally feel comfy with.

BlueBelle Thu 12-Jul-18 21:29:40

I thought they did away with mixed wards when so many people were uncomfortable with them

Auntieflo Thu 12-Jul-18 22:51:24

I was admitted into a 6 bed CCU ward from A&E early on Sunday morning. Half were male. They were moved later on, into an all male ward. I was just glad to be there and being looked after. But, the young one was missed. grin

gillybob Fri 13-Jul-18 07:05:08

It’s the definition of “trans woman” that bothers me. Are we talking about a man who has fully transitioned ? A man in the process of doing so? Or a man who has decided that he self identifies as a woman? The first I can accept, the 2nd I could possibly be persuaded to accept, the 3rd most definitely not.

On the subject of mixed wards, my mum spent a lot of her last months in hospital on at least 2 occasions that I recall she was in a mixed unit which really upset and distressed her . She was a very private (prudish even) woman and hated every minute of sharing her private space with strange men.

PamelaJ1 Fri 13-Jul-18 07:39:15

But you wouldn’t be in a mixed ward would you.
You’d be in a women’s ward with a transgender woman in it.
To be blunt would she still have all her tackle?
I think I would find it difficult.
Sorry to the pedants, too many woulds I ?

OldMeg Fri 13-Jul-18 07:42:53

Spare a thought about how these transgender people must feel too.

OldMeg Fri 13-Jul-18 07:45:40

You might feel uncomfortable knowing there’s a transwomsn who still has her ‘tackle’ as you put it. Imagine if as a woman trapped in a man’s body you actually had that ‘tackle’ attached to you and you felt it was alien to you. Have some sympathy.

Bathsheba Fri 13-Jul-18 07:53:54

It is so difficult for the hospitals, though, isn't it? What do people expect them to do? Provide all male, all female and 'other' wards? Would transgender men and transgender women be comfortable sharing a ward? I would expect them to protest on the grounds of equal rights at the very least! Would fully transitioned transgender women want to share with a biological man who is self-identifying as a woman? It's a minefield.

Bathsheba Fri 13-Jul-18 08:00:43

Likewise, do people expect the City of London to create a third 'others' pond on Hampstead Heath? hmm

FlexibleFriend Fri 13-Jul-18 09:16:50

There are already 3 ponds, men, womens and unisex. As for sharing a hospital ward I wouldn't care as long as they don't snore. Having shared with women who rattle the windows all night and talk very loudly into their mobile all day all I want is peace and quiet in Hospital. So as long as they don't snore I really couldn't care less whether they have their tackle or not, as long as I'm not looking at it.

Azie09 Fri 13-Jul-18 09:26:13

For me, it's about credibility as much as discrimination. I struggle to find sympathy or even empathy because I want to know where all these people living in the 'wrong' bodies have been all my life. Even if it's something that once couldn't be spoken about, like homosexuality, I have lived a fairly unconventional life and met a wide range of people from all walks of life but this is new. So it strikes me as a trend, an idea, a psychological affliction, something to be treated with caution, not least because there are dark undertones about motivation. Also, haven't the people who mind for various reasons also got rights?

Fennel Fri 13-Jul-18 09:33:47

Bluebell - yes the thread said there was a directive from the govt. that all wards should be single gender, but many hospitals haven't got the facilities, or funds, to achieve that target.

FarNorth Fri 13-Jul-18 09:35:35

"do people expect the City of London to create a third 'others' pond on Hampstead Heath?"

There already is a pond for mixed genders on Hampstead Heath.

Blinko Fri 13-Jul-18 09:46:06

Surely the fact that there is already a unisex pool and this issue has arisen because presumably trans people don't want to use it, rather reinforces the concerns expressed by Azie09 ?

jura2 Fri 13-Jul-18 09:57:17

OldMeg, yes, this - thanks for your comment.

It is a very difficult issue- like Gillybob, cat. 1 and 2 are fairly easy to accept- 3 less so. But as with many things, we often react with the personal experiences we know, and the people we know who are affected.

I have 3 trans friends. One had the full reversal aged 20. You would never ever know. Small hands and feet, pette, lovely voice, no-one could ever guess. The other is 58 and had the reversal 9 years ago. She is very tall, strong, and still has very much a man's voice. At a Fête some years back, our guest from UK came out of the toilets and said 'there is a pervert in there- disgusting- I was scared'. The poor trans was really upset aand shaken. We have got to know her well since then. She had heard us speak English (no-one else spoke English there... rural Fête in the mountains) and as she speaks good English, had spoken to her to mae her feel welcome. A totally innocent ' welcome to the Fête, hope you are enjoying it ... or btw where are you from' kind of thing. Because she is tall and not a feminine beauty, she gets that reaction a lot, because she can look a bit like a 'tranny', although she has, with the help of her daughter, learnt to dress better and tone down the make up to be more natural.

So the first one could be in a woman's ward, and you'd never know. The second one would also have to be in a woman's ward- and could make some other women feel uncomfortable. Perhaps me too- until I had spoken to her and realised what a nice person she is, and the journey she has gone through.

The third identifies as a woman - but because of massive pressure from her very religious parents, managing the family business, etc- she ony realised this 100% after her parents died. Massive break-down, attempted suicide, anorexia - at 56. She managed to get better- but aged 58, she realised that there was no way she could go through the reversal at ther age. So she has had to accept it would not happen - she dresses clasically, demurely, does not overdo make up in every day life - often wears lovely silk or linen trouser suits with low heels, and a good quality, discreet handbag. But yes - she identifies as a 'she' but she still has all her tackle, in your words. Does that make here a risk to other women- NO, not at all. Men who identify as women, tackle or not- are absolutely no risk to other women, for sure. Certainly a lot less than many other men who are strongly attracted to females.

What the answer is, I do not know. But I'd happily share award, or a WC with either of those 3.

Sparklefizz Fri 13-Jul-18 10:56:22

jura2 I agree with what you say above, but as regards your "no.3" you know her back-story and I am sad for her, but (as in all walks of life) there are con people and a man does not have to be on his guard against a woman self-defining as a man, but vice versa ...... it could be very risky.

Look at the conmen and women who came out of the woodwork claiming to have been bereaved by the Grenfell disaster, look at the male prisoners who are self-defining as women to get transferred into a women's prison (I have a relative who works in the Justice System who can tell hair-raising stories of this.) I have great sympathy for those who are genuine, it must be horrendous for them, but I also want women to be safe and protected from predatory men jumping on a bandwagon.

We can never please everybody all of the time with dozens of choices of toilets, hospital wards, open air swimming pools.

jura2 Fri 13-Jul-18 11:48:36

Yes, Sparklefizz, I totally get that. It is indeed very complicated, and I do not know what the answer is.

And I probably would feel very differently if I did not happen to have got to know all 3 above very well, and their story.

SueDonim Fri 13-Jul-18 13:09:43

Jura2, you might be interested to learn that transwomen commit crime at the same rate as men. Transwomen are in fact as much (or as little, depending on your POV) a threat to women as men are.

To a previous OP, 80% of transgender women have had no surgery and have their full male 'tackle'.

Fennel Fri 13-Jul-18 13:17:28

Do they have hormone treatment to reduce testosterone?

jura2 Fri 13-Jul-18 13:21:18

Sue what kind of crime? Sexual crime? I'd be very interested in any links to that.

Well yes, they do- before surgery too, to make breasts grow.

Bathsheba Fri 13-Jul-18 13:43:16

There are already 3 ponds, men, womens and unisex. Oh are there? I hadn't realised. But even so, I imagine transgender people would take umbrage at not being able to swim with the gender with which they are now aligned. After all, biological women are allowed to swim in the unisex pool and the women's pool. Are transgender women allowed - expected even - to swim in the men's pool as well as the unisex? Surely not!

Sparklefizz Fri 13-Jul-18 13:44:51

This is interesting:

MawBroon Fri 13-Jul-18 14:08:49

Such a thorny issue.
The ramifications regarding single sex wards which have been sought for years and prisons (although I suppose these could be mixed, with a degree of segregation) are one thing, but I refuse to get worked up about Ladies’ or otherwise Bathing Ponds on Hampstead Heath.