Labour Party and anti semitism

Thank you for the invitation to rejoin your thread Allygran but between the patronising pontificating of one poster and the puerile pronouncements of another, I really feel they have both ends of the spectrum covered.

PECS I am going to jump into your post with another poster I hope neither of you mind. PECS you say in a response to another poster: I go 'on and on' (now that is irony!) about Palestine and Israel because I strongly believe that is the underpinning issue being used to discredit JC.

Lets take this comment if I may first. How can JC be discredited by his support for Palestine? No one is criticising his support for Palestine. He is being discredited by allowing antisemitism to grow and continue and do nothing to support those members of the Labour Party including MP's who speak out against it, in fact they are being persecuted.
You then say:
If he did not openly support Palestine do you really think there would have been this level of accusations?

In my view yes! Because it is not about supporting Palestine, it is about his attitude towards Israel that is the issue. It seems to me that a lot of the far left cafe culture elite cannot support Palestine without being against Israel. That is the issue, not that he is supporting Palestine.

You say:
Unless humanitarian support for Palestine can happen without it being equated with anti-Semitism there is little hope for any peace anywhere.
.
This is such a divisive statement and so broad. However, as we have established there is "humanitarian support for Palestine" on a gigantic scale and has been for the last almost seventy years increasingly. It is largely (from the excellent research I have read) become part of the problem not the solution. Therefore your statement as far as I am concerned is fallacious.

Please excuse me for muscling in on your post Anniebach and PECS, just could not resist.

Trisher

First, I think I pointed out to you and offered you a link that warts and all put the Palestinian refugee's situation into a political, economic, social and cultural wider context. Included in that excellent research they examine, the 'actors' (Fucault) involved for almost 70 years in producing the current status as non citizens in their host Country's with the exception of Jordan, where the situation appears to be more inclusive. However on the whole, whilst I do not like blame cultures, one has to apportion accountability and the research has done so with recommendations for each of the host Country's and the other "actors" such as political groups, the UNRWA who in reality, as you see from the cut and paste below, are playing a Governance role in most camps/enclaves, that they are neither equipped to carry out, nor is it recognised by the UN, or even the UNRWA officially. The researchers say:
UNRWA, traditionally, and like any other humanitarian institution, considered refugees to be needy victims. Parallel to the failure of acknowledging the urbanization process that transformed tent cities into complex built environments, is also the failure of acknowledging the desire of traumatized and voiceless victims to become emancipated subjects, especially after some sort of normalcy of life in the camps has set in. However, currently, UNRWA is aware of the importance of empowering the refugees.
Our fieldwork reveals the misunderstandings between UNRWA and refugees that characterize the current status quo. Because of its mandate, a humanitarian organization like UNRWA has historically understood its role as a temporary relief provider to a temporary group of victims, carefully avoiding taking on a wider governing role. At the same time, most refugees have effec- tively assigned UNRWA a key role, holding it responsible for problems in the camps that go well beyond the realm of its mandate.
As argued before the resulting “phantom sovereignty” of UNRWA is based on this fundamental misunderstanding of roles and responsibilities, which leaves a problematic void, contributes to the sense of permanent emergency and exception, and fuels mistrust and suspicion. Decades of internal and international outmigration of the most educated and capable among the camp dwellers – keen to escape the trap of passivity and over-reliance on relief – has left camp communities in vulnerable conditions^^Ultimately, the situation can be reversed by developing effective, democratically endorsed camp governance structures that represent community interests and can lead to camp improvements. UNRWA may choose to accept and engage with existing representative structures, overcome its paternalistic approach and sometimes institutional arrogance, and carefully assist and strengthen camp governance.59 (Misselwitz & Hanafi, 2010)

This is a long post but I hope it addresses the question I asked several post's ago, why are the Arab Muslim Palestinian's now second, third and fourth generation still not absorbed or integrated into the host Countries communities? I feel now, after doing my own research that that question is much clearer. It is as I imagined it to be complex, the result of 70 years of refusing to see that this was a permanent rather than a temporary situation, and instead of using the vast amounts of money to treat people "paternalistically" and as "needy victims" as the research reports, rather than empower them to be self determined 'actors' (Fucault) integrating into communities in the host Countries or outside. This raises another dimension that has prevented integration, in most host Countries, one of not only acceptance but the willingness on both sides for integration. We are all equal but some more equal than others, and it is no different it seems anywhere in the World.

Now you say why should the poor host Country's take on these refugees. The research covers this and comes to the conclusion that, mostly the Palestinian refugees are regarded as a lesser group in slums on the outskirts of their towns. Other than Jordan who seem to have a different view.

Inside the camps of course there are all sort's of political groups vying for power, for their own ends. Very complex sets of power relations going on. In all of this are the people, who are seen differently by each of the 'actors'. "Needy victims, potential political fodder, non citizens, unwanted in society outside the camp, different socially, with no social currency because of poverty and dependence.

Now this is what I needed to know, and thanks to our discussion and my own research I now have a little understanding of the complexity and how this has all come to be.

I still though believe it is so much more complex than blaming Israel for all that is wrong in the Levant and wanting their destruction.

That does not mean that because I realise that, that I am against anyone or that I do not have empathy with the Arab Muslim Palestinians in the camps/enclaves formally classified and registered, still by paternal ancestry as refugees after 70 years.

It surprises me that you appear to think that looking at the whole picture, means that one has to be on one side or the other, I find that difficult to understand. We have discussed this earlier it is not a requirement to take sides, it is only a requirement to see both sides and be ready, if needed to defend either side, if injustice or unfairness is taking place.

There are faults on all side, not just Israel, and Palestinians, but if you have read the document I posted the link for: the UNRWA, the bodies of Governance, the UN, the host Country's. If one goes back far enough the West, including Britain in the early 1900's the US although under pressure alt Britain did not vote for the partition along with Greece. I have posted all this previously for you.

You seem to have an aversion to calling the camps enclaves, why? When people have been resident in the host Country's for almost 70 years, it is natural to call them enclaves. Why do you want to call them camps? Clearly you want the image portrayed by a camp to be part of your message. Why not just say that?

You have turned a learning and sharing discussion into a rather aggressive and defensive one, unnecessarily so. I am not against you or the Palestinian's, I believe that Corbyn is influenced by his links to Hamas and other terrorist groups, as well as now established Political groups with military wings, such as the PLO and PLA, all of whom are interlinked with other well trained and well armed large Army's across the Middle East.

I believe that the antisemitism in the Labour Party is encouraged by Corbyn's attitude to the Israeli's and his leaning towards the groups previously mentioned. The persecution of those Labour Party members and MP's who have spoken out against antisemitism in the Labour Party is wrong, and JC is doing little about it. That is my view.

Have a lovely holiday PECS

I am not baiting you Annie I have no need to do that.

I have asked you direct questions and offered you information to support my opinion when you challenged me but you have chosen to ignore them.

I am away on holiday tomorrow so you can chunter on happily with your opinions without my ripostes.

Emily Benn, on the left, granddaughter of Tony Benn has criticised Corbyns article in the Guardian , says he must go.

Baiting doesn’t work with me PECS , try a straight question.

Tom Watson has at last spoken out.

Wonder who Momentum will choose to take his place.

Not before time Tom

And I go on and on about Corbyn’s hypocrisy

So you do support the Israeli government? I thought you said I should not assume that?

I am not assuming your support for JC. I absolutely know that is a No!

I go 'on and on' (now that is irony!) about Palestine and Israel because I strongly believe that is the underpinning issue being used to discredit JC. If he did not openly support Palestine do you really think there would have been this level of accusations?
Unless humanitarian support for Palestine can happen without it being equated with anti-Semitism there is little hope for any peace anywhere.

You have been careful not to express any view about Israel /Palestine. Except that you won't accept Hamas as an elected voice for Palestine.

You assume to much PECS . Corbyn’s support for Hamas?

When he called them friends or when questioned by a select committee he said ‘with hindsight I was wrong.

He has encouraged anti semitism in the party by failing to do anything to discourage it. You admire his speeches when he was a back bencher, you go on and on about Palestine and Israel, I don’t ignore the things he has failed to do as a leader, sitting like a frightened mouse whilst one of his own MP’s was reduced to tears by abuse from a Momentum activist and then in the same room greeting the activist .

Remaining silent at the NEC meeting when one member let rip with anti semetic abuse, followed this by saying the man has apologised.

For me it is these which cause me to mistrust him, his inviting IRA members to Westminster when his colleagues were grieving. for me It isn’t mouthing of at ralleys and demo’s , it is day to day treatment of disregarding the feelings of people, and his refusal to face an interview where he can be asked questions.

anniebach

Earlier on in this thread, *trisher" gave some background as to why the IRA was formed, to which you responded:

"Most kind of you to explain the anger of the IRA trisher - someone will find it interesting I'm sure".

That sounds suspiciously like sarcasm to me.

More recently you posted "one can't help think what it was like for Jews to be scattered around the world, driven out of countries, hated so much" ...

to which PECS responded "Pretty much the same as it is for Palestinians. Palestinians are actually human being just like Jews... it's amazing how like real people they are".

Despite your earlier sarcasm, you refer to PECS' response as "sad" and "sarcastic" and say her sarcasm is a form of "bullying" - a claim that you frequently make. Why is your sarcasm not "bullying"?

PECS has already posted details of ten Early Day Motions (with relevant dates and EDM numbers) that Corbyn raised in support of various Initiatives and raising concerns about anti-semitism. The only response to this was a questioning of its validity.

Nigglynellie I do not deny any of the difficulties and racism that have faced Jewish communities over centuries. I do not deny the horror of the Holocaust. It is a terrible fact.

My comment about homelands was aimed at Ally who seems to be saying that the Palestinians, ousted from their homes in 1947/8, in the 1967 war and in other aggressions, should just forget their homeland and be absorbed into the countries they have fled to. I am sorry if I did not make it clear.

I apologise if I have missed your posts expressing empathy for Palestine/Palestinians and your condemnation of Israeli aggression. I therefore have assumed you supported Israel. You do not appear to acknowledge that JC support for Palestinian human rights might be a legitimate thing for a Labour leader to do. I admit I used that too, to assume your support for Israel. I am glad you do not support Israel's current government.

I am not patronising you Annie but you do keep repeating things.
I understand your position: You do not like JC, you think he is a Trot & anti Semitic. You think that he has encouraged anti-Semitism in the LP by failing to challenge it more publicly. You do not agree that the rt of Labour may be using the anti-Semitism row as an opportunity to undermine JC's democratically elected leadership. You do not agree that the extreme rt wing may be manipulating the situation for their own devious ends.
My opinion, as a LP member, is different to yours. Not wrong...just different.

I assume I am an Israeli government supporter because I hold Corbyn in contempt, oh these Corbyn devotees

Prepare for a shock PECS, I knew Palestinians were human beings , please do not patronise me .

Now do say when I have I voiced support for the Israeli government , you cannot but do you have the good manners to apologise for making a false accusation?

Just trying to raise the issue that there are two groups of equal human beings but one group is seen as far more worthy of empathy than the other. I have not seen you, or other Israeli Government supporters show any empathy for Palestinians at all or even acknowledge the IDF is regularly censured for breaking international law.

There have been shocking actions from both sides but only one side gets sympathy.

nigglynellie if I may use irony , I would point out that the Palestinian Jews were not persecuted by the Palestinian Arabs. Much of the early objection to Zionist policies came from local Jews who did not want to conflate religion with politics. We don't like it when Muslims try to set up Islamic states do we? It is not right.

Sarcasm was uncalled for PECS , for some they think sarcasm is a weapon, it isn’t , just sad and yes a form of bullying

Persecuted so much for centuries particularly in Eastern Europe. Pushed on from pillar to post, denied citizenship, ethnically cleansed again and again till the 'final solution'! Yes on balance I would say they needed a homeland!!

Pretty much the same as it is for Palestinians Annie Palestinians are actually human beings just like Jews! They love their kids, like to work and earn a living and everything. It's amazing how like real people they are!

We all need a homeland, one can’t but help think what it was like for Jews to be scattered around the world, driven out of countries, hated so much

It would be so much easier on the West's conscience if the Palestinians just melted away and became even more invisible. I don't know why they just don't give up their claim to their homeland, houses , farms etc. What a fuss they make. Who needs a homeland anyway?

Ally gran1 the UNRWA site says DOES UNRWA RUN THE REFUGEE CAMPS?
No. UNRWA does not administer the camps but is responsible for running education, health, and relief and social services programmes, which are located inside and outside camps.
So for UNRWA they are still camps.
As for Hamas it is regarded by some as a terrorist organisation but not in Europe, where only its military wing is classed as such. It is the party responsible for governing Gaza
In September 2016 a legal advisor to the European Court of Justice, Eleanor Sharpston, provided an advisory opinion, in favour of cancelling the listing of Hamas as a terrorist organization. She argued that the determination originally adopted was flawed, and that the EU cannot "rely on facts and evidence found in press articles and information from the internet" in order to list organizations as terrorists.[441] Egypt,[442] Saudi Arabia,[443] Japan,[444] New Zealand,[445] Australia and the United Kingdom[446] have designated the military wing of Hamas as a terrorist organization.[447] The organization is banned in Jordan.[448] It is not regarded as a terrorist organization by Iran,[449] Russia,[450] Norway,[451] Switzerland,[452] Turkey, China,[453] and Brazil.[454]
The issue is so much more complicated than the picture you try to present.
The logical conclusion to any idea is that you take that idea and using the basis of it transfer the idea to other situations. So you advocate that Palestinians because they are ethnically Arabs and may be Muslim should be taken in by Arab Muslim countries. I then took this idea to the ridiculous conclusion that therefore perhaps all refugees should be allocated to countries based on their ethnicity and religion. I didn't say it should be done I simply asked a question. It is of course totally ridiculous as is the idea that only Arab countries should be solely responsible or that all Palestinians are Muslims.
Refugee camps are places where displaced people are housed in the hope that they may eventually return to the country they have been displaced from. Calling them "enclaves" implies that they have some sort of permanent territorial right to be where they are and there is no need to return the people to their homeland.

Trisher, you might not know this but personal attacks are the lowest form of debate.

Do get your facts right Trisher. Hamas is a terrorist group.
Corbyn is a Trotskyite.

Please read the links I have offered to you. You will see that the camps are considered 'enclaves' do read, I urge you to see more.

The diatribe you have posted was much what I would have expected. Why?

If your view is "neutral" I dread to think what bias involves.
Your clearly very committed to your own belief on this. I have given you what I believe is a balanced view, with fact's and information. But all I get back is attack.

As for my post. I simply asked a question and your response was to accuse me of certain 'beliefs' Do read the post.

I simply carried your idea to its logical conclusion, something you apparently find distasteful, which of course it is, applied in any form to anyone.
I have no idea what your conclusion is perhaps you could try explaining it, I will find it interesting.

We are so far apart on this Trisher, you are unwilling to read anything you are unwilling to look at the bigger issue, including the forrest that our friend PECS is talking about. D o read the report link, knowledge won't hurt you, it's about the Governance of the Arab Muslim Palestinian camps if you like or as they are also known enclaves. Why you find enclave difficult I do not understand. Unless it sounds more established than camp, which of course after 70 years most are. Do read the report it is very informative, detailed and covers many Sociological aspect of the whole situation of Arab Muslim Palestinians in host Countries across the Levant.

Corbyn is a Trotskyist, always has been. His assurances in the Guardian has gone down like a lead balloon, why on earth have it published on the Jewish Sabbeth. How much longer before he splits the party, something he and his devotees want sooo badly, then they can really have a communist party.

Tom Harris has quite the party now after 34 years