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Labour Party and anti semitism

(738 Posts)
Anniebach Sun 29-Jul-18 12:49:18

both Margaret Hodge and Ian Austin now face disciplinary action , Margaret for telling Corbyn he was anti semetic and Ian for telling a close friend of Corbyn the party has become a sewer . Freedom of speech not allowed in the party.

nigglynellie Sun 29-Jul-18 13:12:44

I can't get my head round the fact of anti semitism being an issue at all in this tolerant country of ours in 2018!! While I can see people have issues with the Israeli government, that's understandable and acceptable, but to hate an individual person because they either come from Israel or are associated by religion is absolutely horrible. I'm not that keen on on quite a few governments, but I don't automatically hate individuals simply because of who/what they are or where they come from. It's ridiculous and deeply deeply unpleasant!

Anniebach Sun 29-Jul-18 13:17:47

it Is deeply unpleasant niggly, this has been going on for over two years Have never known it in all the years I have been a member , I agree with Ian Austin, it has become a sewer, the bullying is unbelievable.

nigglynellie Sun 29-Jul-18 14:03:45

Until JC became leader annie, I was never even remotely aware of this kind of prejudice, Till now I've never given it a seconds thought. Why on earth do these people automatically gun for Jews? Are they Nazi's annie? I'm not that wild about Trump, but I don't automatically hate all Americans!! It doesn't make any sense except that despite abject denials, these people do actually hate Jews regardless of Israel!! That can be the only reason and quite frankly they need locking up!

trisher Sun 29-Jul-18 14:10:19

It is of course connected with the definition of anti-semitism that has been generally adopted but which does leave a number of things that remain unresolved and which has now been thoroughly investigated by the NEC . For example, is it anti-semitic to discuss and condemn the treatment of Palestinians by Israel? One of the most controversial is this ^Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis^-is anti-semitic
It seems to me that there are circumstances where this might be appropriate or at least understood, for example a Palestinian might wish to do this. Should they not have the right to use such a metaphor for the treatment they have suffered?.
And I'm sorry but if Margater Hodge wishes to use the language she did and call the leader of the Labour Party anti-semitic without giving any valid reason apart from the fact that she has Jewish ancestors then "yes" she should be disciplined. Freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to name call.

Anniebach Sun 29-Jul-18 14:15:49

Generally adopted? By over 100 countries , the judiciary, police force ,the government but not by Corbyn because too many of his close friends would face disciplinary action.

You never once criticise the shadow chancellor for calling fellow labour MP’s f*****g losers trisher, very pick and choose when it comes to defending Corbyn and co.

Anniebach Sun 29-Jul-18 14:16:55

Yes niggly, not untill Corbyn became leader

lemongrove Sun 29-Jul-18 14:22:55

A Labour Councillor has just been suspended for saying all sorts of outrageous things ( Hitler had the right idea etc)
Amongst other mad outpourings against Jewish people.
Hiw long it took for him to be suspended is unknown, but hope it was swiftly done.
Yes, it’s Momentum once again trying to get MP’s deselected for saying what they think Annie.

Blinko Sun 29-Jul-18 14:27:23

FWIW, Ian Austin's a local MP, widely regarded as a decent and honourable man. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the current kerfuffle, I'll back Ian Austin every time. I also have the greatest regard for Ms Hodge. Chair of the PAC (I think?) she has always behaved with considerable decorum and her intellect is surely up there with the brightest.

What on earth is the LP thinking about?

lemongrove Sun 29-Jul-18 14:30:47

It’s those who have taken over the LP Blinko and are behind the figurehead of Corbyn, whilst the rest of them sit around wringing their hands ( and in truth, apart from speaking out there is little they can do now) those who do speak out will be got rid of pdq.

Blinko Sun 29-Jul-18 14:35:10

Of course, all this nonsense means there's no viable alternative to the present incumbents in government. The LP needs to get its collective knickers out of the present twist and get on with its primary remit of providing a challenging opposition to HMG.

Otherwise, we don't have democracy in this country. Do we?

Anniebach Sun 29-Jul-18 14:41:07

In 2012 Corbyn came to the defence of Sheikh Raed Salah and called him an honoured citizen, The year before this man was arrested by british police when he was due to speak in the house with Corbyn, this man revived the anti semetic blood libel slur that Jews cooked with childrens blood.

Labour students at oxford called Auschwitz a cash cow , they called Jewish students Zio, a neo Nazi slur, these students gave testimony of this and the NEC decided not to publish a party report, just said there had been some incidents of anti Semitic behaviour , there would be no disciplinary action.

How can some supporters of the Labour Party keep defending this man.

Anniebach Sun 29-Jul-18 14:42:52

Blinko, that claim no longer works, the top of the Labour Party are anti semetic

nigglynellie Sun 29-Jul-18 14:43:27

How dreadful that Margaret Hodge was so distressed that she felt compelled to tackle JC in the way she did! That man should be apologising to her for distress caused not the other way round. A misunderstanding John McDonnell tells us on Today?!! A person of Margaret Hodges experience and intellect? I don't think so!
Of course anyone can criticise the Israeli government loudly and vehemently, but what they cannot do is make vile comments about its citizens or Jewish people generally, and people who do so should be thoroughly ashamed!

trisher Sun 29-Jul-18 14:46:19

Annie I wasn't asked about the shadow chancellor. And yes the definition has been adopted by over 100 countries not least because Israel and her US backers exert much pressure to get what they want. The situation in Gaza is appalling and casting allegations of anti-semitism is one way to detract interest from it and creat worries about speaking out about it.

lemongrove Sun 29-Jul-18 14:52:10

So you don’t think there is a problem within the LP at all
Even Corbyn thinks there is, ( according to him)

lemongrove Sun 29-Jul-18 14:53:58

Casting allegations about the Israel/Palestine situation is also a way of distracting from the very real situation of all the anti-semitism within the LP.

Blinko Sun 29-Jul-18 15:03:56

These people are making a serious misjudgement (amongst others, it would seem) if they start using the system against respected, hard working MPs. Surely MPs must be able to express their concerns about how this is being handled?

I remain baffled as to why the LP can't simply adopt the generally held definition, and have done with it. Unless, as ab says, they are actually anti semitic. If that is indeed the case, then I think they have a problem.....

….but so does the country in terms of having a viable opposition.

trisher Sun 29-Jul-18 15:04:41

lemon I think the problem is not just with the LP. It is much wider and much more complicated and the LP have at least tried to deal with it. There is a growing feeling among some young people that the people of Palestine are being consistently ill treated and that this is being ignored by the international community, partly because of the power and influence Israel commands through its US connections. It is posssible that this will spill over into anti-semitism, which would be horrific. But one of the problems is that some consider it already has and site things like the boycott of M&S as an example of this. The only way to tackle this is to have an open and free discussion where all ideas can be shared, something the LP is trying consistently to do. And when it does is, ironically, accused of anti-semitism

OldMeg Sun 29-Jul-18 15:06:44

Just been listening to a debate about this on Radio 4. What’s coming across loud and clear is that there is disagreement about the definition of antisemitism. It seems that disagreeing with the politics of the state of Israel can be read as antisemic. In which case that applies to me as I abhor the brutality and racism from people like Netanyahu.

Those who dislike Corbyn will of course use this disagreement in definition to whip up the arguement without even trying to,understand the reasoning behind it,

Anniebach Sun 29-Jul-18 15:07:09

So what is happening in Gaza makes it acceptable to admire an anti semetic wall mural as Corbyn did, to claim over 100 countries are under orders from Israel and the U S .

trisher come off it, I posted several times of the shadow chancellors verbal attack on fellow MP’s, I didn’t ask you personally of your opinion on it, neither did I ask you personally about anti semetism in my O/P, you didn’t hesitate to give your opinion on this, but on calling decent labour MP’s f*****g losers ? Silence

OldMeg Sun 29-Jul-18 15:09:39

What a tirade. Think best if I just listen to reasoned discussion on Radio 4.

trisher Sun 29-Jul-18 15:10:00

Blinko can you answer my question then. Is it anti-semitic for a Palestinian to use a comparison with the Nazi treatment of Jews when speaking about how he and his family have suffered becuse of the Israeli government? The definition says it is, but shouldn't he be allowed to describe things as he sees them?

Ilovecheese Sun 29-Jul-18 15:14:32

"Those who dislike Corbyn will of course use this disagreement in definition to whip up the arguement without even trying to,understand the reasoning behind it,"

You have hit the nail on the head there OldMeg

That is what this whole thread is for.

Blinko Sun 29-Jul-18 15:25:24

Of course anyone can criticise the Israeli government loudly and vehemently, but what they cannot do is make vile comments about its citizens or Jewish people generally, and people who do so should be thoroughly ashamed!

I agree with the sentiments expressed earlier by Niggly.

As there is an agreed definition, (even if not perfect to cover every circumstance), why is the LP taking it upon itself to redefine it? Wouldn't there have to be an internationally agreed redefinition?