Labour Party and anti semitism

It is not going to go away.

news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-is-an-anti-semite-ex-chief-rabbi-jonathan-sacks-claims-11484443

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-zionist-enoch-powell-antisemitism-rabbi-jonathan-sacks-labour-jewish-leadership-a8511391.html
sorry, I can't seem to copy and paste a portion of this, only the link.

I don't think that the Independent is right wing, is it?

Thankyou - I agree with most of what you say.
Especially that criticism of the Israeli govt. is not anti semitism.
Sadly this situation has gone on since time immoral (as my husband says.)
I can't see Trump's anticipated peace deals making any difference.

Fennel

I have noted the increase in antisemitism in the Labour Party , amongst other troubling issues, since the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum group was formed with the soul purpose of backing the man Jeremy Corbyn not the Labour Party . This was commonly called ' The Party within a party '.

I have been left astounded by the denials by those who refuse to accept the words, experiences, pleas by Labour Party MP's and councillors who have made known their direct contact with bullying, anti-semetic issues etc. from within their own Labour Party/Momentum activists. Over the years since Corbyn became Leader they have either chosen to defend the behaviour or at times condoned it's use to give / show their backing for Corbyn and I find that possibly the most alarming of all.

Perhaps I could use an old post of mine from another thread discussing antisemitsm within Labour to explain a tad more of where I am coming from with regard to the issue of antisemitism in general.

POGS Thu 17-Mar-16 13:53:43

" Saying Israel is brutal against Palestine is not being Anti Semetic. Opposing the State of Israel 's continued occupation , crimes against the Palestinian People, violation of International Law is nothing to do with Anti Semitism. Nor is mentioning violation of International Law by Palestinians against Israel being Anti Palestinian. They are facts. That is not Anti Semitism ."

As for what to do about it denying the existence within any party is ridiculous but not accepting the swell of anicdotal evidence concerning Labour/Momentum activists from within the Labour Party is part of the problem. So acceptence would be a start.

I think Corbyn and those who are in his inner circle which is for the most part Momentum connected ,not the PLP , are part of the problem and thereby hangs the tale of the division within the Labour Party itself. Labour has been looking like the party it was in the 1980's since the election of Corbyn . The 1980's was a time of nasty, bullying individuals and groups intent on making the Labour party move to the far left/Trotsky doctrine. With the aid of Social Media, the power of the tech savvy activists the resurgence of the 1980's is alive and kicking.

And POGS - what is your stance on the subject?
Have you any suggestions how to deal with the problem?

Pogs - this is what I wrote
"I saw an example of it today, not resulting in violence or bad words TG."
I read your report of the speech by the labour MP and it is awful, I agree. I have no explanation for the apparently different experiences. Except possibly she placed herself in a prominent position, which she should be able to do.
There are some viciously anti semitic, anti black, racist groups in this country, I'm aware of that. but I don't agree that they're typical british subjects.

Fennel

" I never said that antisemitism doesn't exist, just that fortunately it's not too bad where we live at the moment.

I saw an example of it today, not resulting in violence or bad words TG."
---

I am pleased to hear where you live things are ' not too bad ' where you live at the moment .

I am interested to note that you say you saw an example of
verbal antisemitism and how that sits with your previous view " The whole thing has been blown up out of all proportion by the rightwing press. "

Did you ever get to see the debate in Parliament mentioned re antisemitism, to hear from the Labour MP's to hear from the horses mouth as they say ?

There is a thread for Frank Field, he has spoken of bullying to, I posted Corbyn and Tom Watson’s response

Well said grumpa, he could now be thrown out of the party.

If Frank Field has resigned the Labour whip, this should be a signal for other MPs to follow suit. I had the pleasure of meeting him on a couple of occasions to discuss financial/political issues, and he was one of the most genuine and admirable politicians I had the pleasure to meet.

Fennel I dont think I did suggest you denied anti Semitic exists, apologies if I wrote something implying that. I do understand the Biblical references, the claims on the Holy Land. I have visited Jerusalem only once twenty years ago. That beautiful old city felt like the place where the three major faiths meet. Frank field has resigned and is sitting as an independent labour mp. He despairs at the way allegations of anti semitusm are not being robustly dealt with. He’s an interesting individual with controversial but deeply held views on some subjects. He’s a Leaver whose been threatened with deselection by his local members despite his majority increasing with each election. He’s been a party member for sixty years

And now Frank Field has resigned the Labour whip
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45359009

Isn't it just as wrong to dismiss the posts by 2 Jewish posters as it is to dismiss the words of an MP

Surely nobody is dismissing anything on the grounds of religious affiliation?
Or have I missed something?

Biblical times - Abraham had 2 main sons, Jacob and Ishmael.
Jacob was the father of the Jews, Ishmael of the Arabs/Muslims. Both claim their right to the own the Holy Land.

Iam
I never said that antisemitism doesn't exist, just that fortunately it's not too bad where we live at the moment.
I saw an example of it today, not resulting in violence or bad words TG.
I've thought and read a lot about it, coming from an english christian background. I see christianity as an extension of judaism, so in a way I'm going back to my roots.
I think anitisemitism is due to many things, fear, lack of understanding strange behaviours, jealousy of apparent cleverness and business acumen. Jews have survived many eras of persecution because of their qualities of caring for eachother and astuteness.
etc.
But usually law abiding and not physically threatening.
The exception is the current rightwing govt. in Israel. I don't believe they are proactively aggressive, but need to defend their borders. IDF - Israel Defence Forces.
However I agree with those who say the manner of the creation of the state in 1948 was a mistake.
It's such a complex situation, going back to biblical times.

You haven't Iam64 but others have. And have labelled 2 people who have posted their own experiences as Corbyn supporters and devotees. It seems to me that some people are unwilling to accept others' opinions when they conflict with their own and then label people without any real evidence to support that label.

trisher, I certainly only don't think anti semitism exists only in the LP. My concern is that the LP seems to be enabling antisemitism by a some people, linked of course to the Palestinian cause.
I don't recall whether I have posted criticising the 2 Jewish posters here. If I have, I don't see that as antisemitic, more that we have different points of view.
As an aside, there are many women, who claim never to have been on the receiving end of misogynistic comments or behaviour. They claim its something imagined by pathetic women. I don't share that point of view either.

There is a group called ‘ Jewish Voice for Labour’

And there are Jews who say ‘ I have never experienced anti semetism. I am Christian so never experienced Islamophobia but I certaintly know it exists.

Isn't it just as wrong to dismiss the posts by 2 Jewish posters as it is to dismiss the words of an MP (if that is in fact what was done). Indeed couldn't it be considered anti-semitic to do so? Or do you think anti-semitism only exists in the Laour party?

Iam

Amen to that.

POGS, I was a LP member when he was elected. I didn’t vote for him, said I’d stay for six but stayed twelve months, then left.
I am increasingly concerned that many of his supporters, LP members who would prefer another leader but are joining the claims that the accusations of anti semitism are part of some kind of Jewish conspiracy. Some Say the allegations of anti semitism from eg Margaret Hodge are exploiting the Holicaust fir her own political ends.
I fear some don’t recognise anti semitism When it’s staring them in the face

I certaintly defended him untill I learned of his past, no way could I defend him when I learned the truth of his past and since he has sunk even further . Poisoned pill in my opinion based on his own words and actions.

Iam 64

" It seems to me that Jeremy Corbyn's actions before he had the unexpected luck to become party leader, are now catching up with him. "
-

Some of us were pointing out his ' actions ' prior to his subsequent winning of the Labour Leadership. Corbyn has been lucky to have excellent media / tech savvy people behind him from the start in the form of the Unions/Jeremy For Leader/Momentum.

I would have respect for Corbyn and his allies if they were not permanently back tracking on / denying what they have said, whom they have feted, tried to declare themselves as innocent parties when the facts are glaringly obvious they have been part of the problem.

I am thinking of Venezuela, Militant, Marxism, Anti-Sematism, Iran, IRA , Deselection, the list goes on.

Labour prides itself on being a supposed Broad Church but that is looking more and more to be the opposite these days.

Labour is supposedly ' For The Many Not The Few'. but only if you are from the right Social Class and believe in the dogma according to the Leader and his inner circle which are for the most part not from the Parliamentary Labour Party but from Momentum.

All predicted by some , all denied by some and never the twain will meet but Corbyn is either ' manna from heaven ' or a 'poisoned pill'.

Maw, I am amazed by labours defence too,

Thanks POGS for the long post.

The former chief rabbi, Jonathan Sacks has accused Corbyn of being an anti semite. This issue just isn't going away is it. All politicians and political parties face the risk of bad publicity. It seems to me that Jeremy Corbyn's actions before he had the unexpected luck to become party leader, are now catching up with him. Is he prepared to see the LP unelectable. Yes,I do believe he is.

Corbyn is shooting himself in both feet these days - even if I were one of his supporters I would be very worried about his “foot in mouth” lack of judgement.