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Exit from Brexit

(505 Posts)
varian Mon 06-Aug-18 18:13:52

Brexit has not yet happened, and there can be no certainty that it ever will.

www.gfmag.com/topics/blogs/uk-could-exit-brexit

Jalima1108 Tue 16-Oct-18 23:05:47

And, I should add, probably nationwide (except for NI).

Jalima1108 Tue 16-Oct-18 23:05:09

You can only speak for your immediate circle, surely?
It wasn't general, it was the us that I know of, yes.
But, counting family, friends, neighbours, acquaintances, anyone who has cared to discuss it with us two, an extremely wide circle.

But I don't think that we are unusual in that.

Nandalot Tue 16-Oct-18 22:41:52

It would be helpful, Smileless, if you could repeat your reasons once for those of us who weren’t following the thread two years ago. There are probably many who read the threads but don’t post so there may be quite a few who do not know your reasons but would be interested.

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 22:23:36

Some leavers were like you smileless and voted leave for their own reasons but everyone knows that some believed the lies.

Smileless2012 Tue 16-Oct-18 21:59:38

But that's his opinion Mazie, it didn't sway my vote.

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 21:55:49

John Major writes "Until now, every US president I have known has considered [the UK’s relevance to America to be enhanced by our membership of the European Union. Yet very soon – on our current course – we will no longer be able to argue from within the EU for Anglo-American beliefs in free trade, open markets and strong defence. Our friends, the Americans, are hard-headed about power. It is romantic folly to think otherwise. Be in no doubt – if the UK can no longer serve America’s interests in Europe, she will look elsewhere for someone who can. Our value – as an ally of America – will decline. No “ifs”, no “buts”: we will be less relevant. No one should be bedazzled by folksy talk of our “special relationship”: it is becoming less “special” year by year.

For centuries, our state schemed and plotted to prevent all Europe uniting against us. Now, we have chosen to turn our back on all Europe. A long line of former statesmen will be turning in their graves. We are told our future aim is to be “Global Britain”: that is certainly the right policy, but it is hardly new. It has been the reality for 300 years.

May must produce new 'concrete proposals' if she wants breakthrough in Brexit talks. What is new is that much of the world will now . perceive Britain to be a middle-sized, middle-ranking nation that is no longer super-charged by its alliances. Suddenly, the world will be a little chillier. If the art of negotiation is to obtain what you seek, then the intention must be to give a little to (hopefully) gain a lot more. I cannot know how the government has conducted negotiations in private with the European Union: very possibly they have met the tenets I have set out. But, even if they have (and not all the signs are good), belligerent noises-off – on a daily basis – have built up ill will, and made the prime minister’s task even more difficult. We know the post-Brexit world will be very different from now. It cannot be otherwise, because no form of Brexit will remotely match up to the promises made by the leave campaign in the referendum: they were vote-gathering fantasies, not serious politics.

I have no constituency vote clouding my view of Brexit. I have no ambition driving my support for it. I have no party whips demanding loyalty before conscience. I have made no false promises about Brexit that I must pretend can still be honoured, even though – in my heart – I know they cannot. I am free to say absolutely and precisely what I believe about Brexit. And it is this: I understand the motives of those who voted to leave the European Union: it can – as I well know – be very frustrating. Nonetheless, after weighing its frustrations and opportunities, there is no doubt in my own mind that our decision is a colossal misjudgment that will diminish both the UK and the EU. It will damage our national and personal wealth, and may seriously hamper our future security. It may even, over time, break up our United Kingdom. It will most definitely limit the prospects of our young."

And – once this becomes clear – I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten – nor forgiven."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/16/false-promises-brexit-john-major

POGS Tue 16-Oct-18 21:45:19

" I don't see how you can possibly know that, Jalima. You can only speak for your immediate circle, surely? Some 33 million people voted. No-one could possibly know what 'most of them' did before voting."

At last the penny drops.

So why do posters keep on and on declaring , making statements they know how /who/why voters voted?

It's nonsense.

MaizieD Tue 16-Oct-18 21:21:12

No varian the referendum was not won by lies,

Well that's odd, smileless because Dominic Cummings, Campaign director of Vote Leave, was positive that it was the big lie on the bus that swung it for Leave.

jura2 Tue 16-Oct-18 21:20:44

But do you 'respect' and are prepared to ignore the consequences which have been highlighted by real experts, like those in the medical and pharmaceutical professions?

Put your pride before the availaibility of treatment for those who suffer.

There is no way the EU will allow for sharing and movement of nuclear matter beyond Brexit.

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 21:19:50

The referendum asked for a simple answer to a very complicated question. Even now no-one can see a happy ending- unless we come to our senses and say "let's just forget the whole sorry episode and stay as we arfe as members of the EU"

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 21:17:28

If you are not any of these things, which so many leave voters were, why would you still, in the face of the evidence over the last two years, persist in supporting such damage to our country?

MaizieD Tue 16-Oct-18 21:16:08

Most of us have considered the evidence, read the views of others and thought long and hard about this before they voted.

I don't see how you can possibly know that, Jalima. You can only speak for your immediate circle, surely? Some 33 million people voted. No-one could possibly know what 'most of them' did before voting.

Smileless2012 Tue 16-Oct-18 21:14:28

I gave my reasons for voting for Brexit more than 2 years ago varian and am not about to do so again besides what would be the point? You are only prepared to see this issue from your own perspective and TBH I've been accused of being uneducated, racist, selfish and uncaring enough here on GN.

The difference between us is that I can respect your decision to vote remain even though I disagree with it

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 21:14:21

I never thought that the EU was perfect, but it was obvious to me that we could try to effect change as members and that the process of leaving would be horrendous and damaging,.

Not 100% one way or the other, but at least 95%.

Jalima1108 Tue 16-Oct-18 21:09:30

Anyone who was 100% leave or 100% remain has not, imo, examined all the evidence. It could be that they have not the intelligence to do so and blindly follow the view of others who have vested interests or are just blinkered to any other point of view.

Most of us have considered the evidence, read the views of others and thought long and hard about this before they voted.

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 21:05:16

What benefits to our country?: I have never seen any, unless you mean the promise from JRM that we will see some benefits in about fifty years.

Smileless2012 Tue 16-Oct-18 21:02:24

I am an intelligent leaver varian. Certainly intelligent enough to put forward my point of view without belittling or insulting others.

We all have our reasons for voting the way we did. I for one am not interested in how much JRM may or may not gain from Brexit as it was not the benefits to individuals that interested me, it was the benefits to our country by leaving that persuaded me to vote leave.

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 20:53:22

We know that folk with a low level of education tended to vote leave. Some, but not all, would be folk with a low level of intelligence. There is a strong correlation between the two.

I don't know which type of leaver you might be. I concede that the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg have both a relatively high level of intelligence and a high level of education and voted Leave. Folk like him have their own agenda.

Other ordinary folk who voted leave for one reason or another should ask themselves " do I have as much to gain from this brexit nonsense as JRM?"

Smileless2012 Tue 16-Oct-18 20:43:20

Oh variangrinI love the way you assume that you have the higher intellectual and moral high ground because you voted remain. And yet, when it comes to intellectual ability, you so often seem unable to argue your case without insulting the intelligence of those who voted for Brexit.

Your level of intelligence is something I can do without.

Jalima1108 Tue 16-Oct-18 20:37:14

Most people are not as intelligent as you though varian

Apparently there are only one or two on GN who are of superior intelligence.
sad

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 20:35:17

Having looked and listened to all sorts of expert advice, I can honestly say that it is obvious to me, as it should be to any intelligent person, that the futur of our country would be very much better if we revoked Article 50 and decided to remain in the EU.

Jalima1108 Tue 16-Oct-18 20:31:43

No-one needs a crystal ball to see that any kind of brexit will damage our country and the future of our children and grandchildren.

No you don't need a crystal ball (do they work?) because you do not know what the future may hold, in or out of the EU, varian.

Smileless2012 Tue 16-Oct-18 20:31:14

It is not a lack of confidence jura it would simply be wrong. You cannot demand another vote because the first one didn't go the way you wanted.

Of course it would be agreeable to remainers to remain in the EU which is why a vote on the final deal is being demanded.

Vote 'no' to the final deal with the only alternative being to remain in the EU. To hell with the referendum result, it doesn't matter what the majority voted for, all be it a small majority, as long as those who wanted to remain get what they wanted.

jura2 Tue 16-Oct-18 20:25:53

And currently, the Police is refusing to investigate Russian interference and Bannon- saying this is because of 'political sensibilities'. And Isabel Oakeshott, who has been aware of that interference from the start, and chose not to divulge so she could make more money with the book- is not being investigated for treason.

Who decides that fraud should not be investigated- even with so much evidence.

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 20:22:33

No-one needs a crystal ball to see that any kind of brexit will damage our country and the future of our children and grandchildren.

The editor of the Daily Mail is now trying to promote "the least damaging brexit". If any brexit is damaging, why do we not just forget this nonsense and agree to remain in the EU?