Theresa May is a liar ?

This is for you, Day6

www.globalcapital.com/article/b19qdyxjl3h7jn/uk-no-deal-brexit-passporting-plan-may-break-wto-rules

Baggs am in full agreement with you, tossing around terms such as chaos is just stupid.No service has ever had enough money and they always demand more.
Of course Eloethan doesn't know more than anyone else about it, unless living in Walthamstow confers special knowledge denied to the rest of us.Rather, she has a left wing take on things, so all is deemed to be rubbish until
St Jeremy gallops to the rescue as PM.

Can we agree ???

1) nothing is going very well (or as suggested it would by those promoting leaving the EU) for the extrication of the UK from the EU at the moment

2) Leading UK political parties are trying to manage significant internal disagreements and controversies, lies and poor communication.

3) the instability caused by the prolonged EU process is causing some increases in racial assaults and a rise in some extreme right political ideology being expressed

4) the instability caused by the prolonged EU process is causing some businesses difficulty in forward planning and in some cases remaining in UK

5) The current POTUS impact on the international political scene is an added difficulty for the UK atm.

Good summary PECS

Theresa May will I'm sure, get the best deal she can and present it to parliament.
Then the fun will start because both sides will say it is a bad deal and it is most likely going to be rejected - what happens then?.

Maybe she will be sent back to get a better deal on a couple of points.
Maybe a second referendum
Maybe they will accept no deal and the big problem with that is a hard border in Ireland.

Any outcome is impossible to call, but I do expect Theresa May to see it through to its conclusion

Maybe none of us know what is really going on but I bet Ireland doesn't get sorted out very easily we haven't managed to do that in centuries. I also expect TM to keep going, what is the alternative with time so short.

Instability is being caused by leaving the EU, saying it’s caused by prolonged negotiations is another blinkered criticism about circumstances that were obviously going to take time. What did you expect?

Some people expected it would be the easiest deal in history

lemongrove I don't know what my living in Walthamstow has got to do with anything (and, apart from saying I live in east London I don't recall saying I lived in Walthamstow).

And when have I described something as "rubbish"? Another poster - I think it was Monica on another thread- who said the concept of class is "rubbish".

I have said it is my opinion that this country is in a state of chaos, as most visibly seen with the Brexit negotiatons. I did not say I know everything. I put forward several examples of the various crises that are occuring in our education system, our health service, our justice system, etc, etc. Others disagree, and that's fine, but I don't think I have described anyone's views as "stupid" or made personal or sneering remarks.

Yes PECS, we can agree (or I can)

the country is neither in chaos or in crisis Eloethan and to constantly exaggerate dramatically [you are not alone in this] is just scaremongering.
You have said a couple of times in the past where you live, but may have forgotten saying it.

What is where I live got to do with this debate lemongrove?

Which of the crises I have mentioned do you count as scaremongering?

The problem is many brexiteers live in a past that never existed ,and thats where they want to return .If they look closely at FACTS they'll see that the UK has never been that green and pleasant land of the songs .It has largely been divided by class and wealth .How leaving the EU will change that is a mystery to me.The EU are introducing laws against tax havens in March and that to me suggests our "betters" in government and the higher echelons want out to protect their own interests.They couldn't care less about Joe Bloggs who works long hours for low pay and still needs benefits to make it through the month .

Did anybody catch the latest news conference from Barnier and Raab a few minutes ago? It was on Sky News but the BBC did not show it live.

It is looking a little more promising when Barnier says :

The EU is prepared to build an ambitious partnership with the Uniuted Kingdom "

They covered various subjects and whatever side of the argument you fall on it may hold some answers to the questions that have been ongoing , daily for 2 years now.

I am of the view that we all need to give greater thought to those who’s future in the UK is well beyond our lifetime.
The uncertainty generated by Brexit is not something I am prepared to take a risk with for my great grandchildren. Especially, when almost daily we are faced with more true facts on the deceitful way we were misled by our politicians at the referendum.

Martha you will have to be prepared to take a risk, because we are leaving the EU [had you not noticed?]

nobody can worry about greatgrandchildren, they will have their own challenges to face just as we did.

Yes POGS I watched that on Sky, looking very encouraging I thought.

Thanks Lemongrove for your comments, I am possibly coming at this with a difference perspective. I still don’t believe we need to the eu. I certainly do not expect to live longer than my grandchildren who’s whole future is likely to be based on getting our relationship with the eu right.

To deprive my 19 year granddaughter of a say in her future because she was not quite 18 but very articulate was unacceptable. Young people aged 16 at the time of the referendum will be young adults by March 2019. They and exPats should not have been deprived of having a say in such an important issue that will be a major factor on the future years. Sorry but far too many of us oldies are bigoted when it comes to allowing young people a democratic say in their own future.

but where does it all end? If they had the vote at age 16, then those teenagers who were nearly 16 but were actually 15 didn't have the vote, and thus would feel equally cheated.
we deem that at age 18, they are of an age [quite rightly] that they can vote, and fully engage in the politics of the vote.
it is not 'us oldies' who deny a democratic vote, but the government of the day [of all political parties]who decide on the age.

Martha as an Oldie who voted to remain in the EU, I can’t help wondering if more young people had got out of bed to vote on that fateful day, the result might have been different.
And it would have been even more helpful if Jeremy Corbyn had actively supported Remain, and encouraged his young fans to vote accordingly.

janeainsworth Sat 01-Sep-18 17:59:20
Ditto

We can all look back to 2016 with "if only" feelings about what should have happened. In my view there should never have been a referendum asking people for a yes/no answer to a very complicated question which most folk had little or no knowledge off. It was only done because of the pressure inside the Tory Party.

David Cameron will go down in history as a reckless gambler who because of his arrogant assumption that the rest of the country would vote his way, proposed a referendum on the future of this country without any safeguards. On a constitutional matter the status quo should be protected. Any change should require a super majority - eg at least a 60% of the electorate on a 75% turnout, as would be required if you wanted to change the constitution of your local gardening society.

He is doubly culpable.

The "will of the people" is in fact the will of Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Rupert Murdoch, and a few other billionaire tax exile newspaper proprietors and internet manipulators who do not have the best interests of our country at heart.. The EU referendum was a fraud. We cannot let our children and grandchildren suffer the consequences. We should do everything we can to prevent this brexit catastrophe.

I fully agree with the sentiments behind many of the responses. Voting in a GE at 16 may be contentious for many. However, the referendum was very different in that we were taking a decision that could not be implemented for at least two years. Therefore 16yrs at the time would be voting on an issue that would not be fully implemented until they would be 18 and entitled to vote.
I cannot for the life of me understand anybody in late life wanting to impose such an important decision that will affect younger generation far beyond those in late life. Especially by those who in their late life are so pedantic they are right to decide and impose decision that will most likely only affect themselves for a relative few more decades? To be so perdantic on a subject that will more important to younger people in their lifetime seems to me to be quite immoral. What many are trying to do is try to justify disenfranchised our 16 yrs olds from making a decision they shall have to live way beyond their own life time.
What moral right have we to impose such a decision on that generation without giving them the opportunity to express their own views?

It has been a wake-up call for them - literally - and let's hope they don't go through life with such lack of interest and/or complacency, blaming others for their woes.

If, in future, the younger generation decide that 16 year olds should have the vote it is up to the younger generations to ensure it.

Don't you think we should all ask why was it that in the 2014 Scottish referendum 16 year olds did get the vote yet that was denied to 16 year olds in the EU referendum?