The Nasty Labour Party - what they really stand for.

The Labour Party is was a broad church POGS

Maizie d

" I'm not trying to deflect, POGS, just stating the obvious. "

Is your name PECS?
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" You have answered your own question by your definition of 'true socialism' but the posters who used the phrase might well have a different definition in mind. "
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I think some have pointed very strongly to what their opinion of 'True Socialism' is in their opinion but I agree defining what others believe is difficult to pin down but I do not think John McDonnell and Corbyn and his Inner Circle are remotely being unclear as to where they stand.

I am reminded of questions you have asked such as :-

"So which definition of 'democracy' are some people on here not accepting, Annie?
It's not fair to make a statement like that and then not tell us exactly what definition you're using."
-
" You don't seem too concerned about the swing to the right bringing in a fascist government, though Annie?"
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So I agree defining another's perception of what is 'True Socialism/Far Left/Communism/ Far Right/ Democracy is difficult to define but there are some who are blunt in their opinion .

By the way as for :-

"Anyway, as I've never talked about 'true socialism' I don't feel in any way bound to answer your question)"

I wasn't 'binding' you to answer my question. You simply could have done as others will do ignore the question.

I grew up with Aneurin Bevan
(well, not literally but he was always a topic of conversation around our kitchen table)

Bevan makes Corbyn seem quite mild and middle of the road!

I think MawBroon did get her facts right Grandad - I did try to correct your spelling of Ernest Bevin's name in my post in a subtle way, but perhaps you were using your voice recognition (one of the downfalls I presume).

I love his opinion of Tories

What is Toryism but organised spivvery? … No amount of cajolery can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party … So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.
And for those "Middle of the road"
We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down.

Oo-er. GNetters will be horrified!

I don't think that Nye Bevan would stand much of a chance with Gnetters were he alive today...

He was a bit left-wing...

www.nyebevan.org.uk/about-nye/

And me ?

#MeToo

Grandad

"Mawbroon, you might at least get your facts right"

Um, I think MawBroon did.

I'm not trying to deflect, POGS, just stating the obvious.

You have answered your own question by your definition of 'true socialism' but the posters who used the phrase might well have a different definition in mind.

(Anyway, as I've never talked about 'true socialism' I don't feel in any way bound to answer your question)

PECS

Your reply to my question, which is can't answer so deflect , is not an answer is it?

I take it the question has not produced any train of thought in your mind that can name a country that is 'True Socialist' (as some posters call it) that has ' overthrown Capitalism' and has been successful with it's economy and it's people?

I think China is probably good with it's economy but not for the people. China could be said to be starting to embrace the idea of Capitalism ' a tad ' but of course those at the top will have a totally different lifestyle to those at the bottom , that happens whether it be Communist/ True Socialist /Dictatorship or a Capitalist governance .

Personally I would rather be in a Democratic Capitalist Society than a Communist /True Socialist Society (no idea what the perceived difference is) . The feted /lionized Leaders such as Marx/Lenin/Che Guevara/Moduro/Hugo Cavez /Putin to name but a few are not Leaders I would like to live under the control of.

Obviously if a person states their admiration for those mentioned , even known to fully embrace their politics and tell us we should follow suit with our government then I for one am happy to say no thank you. John McDonnell is potentially the next Chancellor of the Exchequer and that scares me far more than Capitalism .

The problem with your question, POGS is that everyone is working from a different definition of 'socialist'.

I seem to remember that we (i.e posters on this forum) had a discussion about this some time ago and I don't think we ever reached a consensus.

POGS and which Tory politician would you name as improving the lot of all the people! None are perfect, we are all flawed. I just want politicians to genuinely try to fulfil the promises they make and to be honest public servants. Not enough anywhere at the moment

8 08:51:05
Mawbroon, ^you might at least get your facts right as there were TWO Labour politicians, Ernest Bevin and
Aneurin Bevan^

That was my point Grandad

What is yours?
Other than conflating them

Lemongrove It is not a fashion to look back at a politicians actions and to be disappointed that they did not fulfil their promises or even behave in a way contrary to the majority view of those that elected them I am not a "blind supporter" of any politician. I was very hopeful when Blair was elected that there would be positive change. It did not work out the way I would have liked. In the same way that many May voters may be feeling disillusioned with the reality compared to what they thought they were getting!

Mawbroon, you might at least get your facts right as there were TWO Labour politicians, Ernest Bevin and
Aneurin Bevan.

Anyway I am off to work, see you later

I struggle to think of one too POGS
Most Labour voters were happy enough to accept Blair and Brown at the time, it’s become fashionable to diss them now that the LP has been taken over by extremists.

Quote: Grandad
Many in the trades unions did become politicians in years past. The most famous of which was Ernest Bevan who was a docker at the port of Bristol
You might at least accord him the courtesy of getting the name right
Ernest Bevin
Aneurin Bevan
Got it?
.

It is repeatedly said by many posters Blair and Brown were not true socialists.

Therefore , presumably Corbyn/McDonnell and their inner circle are thought to be 'True Socialists' . Mind you I get confused what a ' True Socialist ' is/means if that excludes believing in ' overthrowing Capitalism' as some would have us believe is not where Corbyn/MsDonnell et al are coming from by their own volition.

Can anybody name a ' True Socialist ' country that has 'overthrown Capitalism' and has been successful with it's economy and it's people? I struggle to think of one.

paddyann

" There are too many "labour" party members who are still Blairites "

Not if the Corbyn/Jeremy for Leader/Momentum party get their way and they sure as hell are making their feelings known .

^ He stood for election as an MP and went on to become Minister of Labour in the National Government of WW2^
He decided that one in ten young men conscripted should be sent down the coal mines - the Bevin Boys. They were selected by pulling numbers from a hat.
The scheme went on until 1948 and those forced to work down the mines were not well treated afterwards as they were not entitled to return to their jobs.

So much for standing up for workers' rights.

Annie 'The voter has a vote , if they wish to be part of a government they can do so as an MP .'

now that is a contradiction for sure. I did think that the UK was a Parliamentary Democracy!?! Where we elect MPs to make the decisions on our behalf.

MaizieD some people live in a world of myth and that being totally in the past.

Many in the trades unions did become politicians in years past. The most famous of which was Ernest Bevan who was a docker at the port of Bristol. He stood for election as an MP and went on to become Minister of Labour in the National Government of WW2 and then the same position in the Atlee 1945 Government.

There were many similar to him until Blair created the "career politician" in the Labour party and that great wealth of life experience people in politics was lost from the House of Commons.

I would have thought as a long standing member of the Labour party you would have known of all the above anniebach.

Makes one wonder?