The Nasty Labour Party - what they really stand for.

since Day6 always but always writes extremely well [ you may not agree with her point of view...that's another story]
MaizieD but she never does anything in a childish way so your comment is merely a point scoring one.

Lucky you have strong feelings because of what you have witnessed and heard, but you, as a SW did not hear the thousandsof success stories and you simply can't throw the baby out with the bathwater IMHO.

Well, from what I read on Google News even the British "red top" newspapers are through gritted teeth acknowledging that the Labour party had a very successful conference.
I thought that half of the so-called 'red tops' were Labour supporting newspapers anyway

I think that Day6 is reading this thread in a parallel universe, Luckygirl. I can't see any sour grapes.

I can see a childish attempt at denigrating anyone slightly to the left of Genghis Kahn, though...

Heavens above - what has sour grapes got to with anything!!??

Expressing concern for vulnerable children who are not in a position to make proper decisions is just that. I am amazed that so many people do not share concern for these poor souls. But maybe you have to be a SW to truly know what is going on under our noses - certainly the government do not seem to care.

I am not talking about privilege; just saying that recruitment needs to be targeted correctly and not at vulnerable children.

I am glad your friend's son has found it a good experience - it sounds as though he comes from a good caring home judging by his mother's response. This is not the sort of family that I am talking about - far from it.

Day6 - I wholeheartedly agree with your entire post - well said ????????????

Yes, but fortunately it's just a few here on GN POGS and good to read reasonable posts from the many about it.
I am assuming the 'sour grapers' simply prefer to talk about Army recruits rather than the LP.

What runs through this thread as well is a hatred of anyone fortunate enough because of circumstances of birth to be well off and well educated. Public school pupils are hated and despised as are men and women bright enough to enrol in the armed forces to be trained as officers.

Not only that, the forces which give many, many from less privileged backgrounds a chance in life, to learn skills, self respect, discipline, to see the world, earn a decent wage, make friends and have wonderful experiences* around the world they might not otherwise have, are scorned as parasites picking off the vulnerable. It's as though every army recruit is doomed, doomed to hellish existence after he/she leaves the forces.

(* A friend's young son has spent three months in Cyprus, on mainly guard duties. He has come back on leave with tales of beach parties, sporting events, physical challenges, sunshine, good friends and a role/job he really enjoys. A few years ago he was drifting and of course his mother worried his life on enrolment that his life would be about fighting wars, but that is only one element of service life. She says he has grown up, matured and become a sensible and happy young man. Her pride in him is visible and rightly so.)

It's unbelievable. Some people who claim to be Labour supporters are so sour. The bitterness, envy and scorn just pours from them. Compassionate Labour? Not with all the hatred and nastiness as demonstrate here in their 'ranks'. No way.

You get the feeling that some here would eradicate all those with privilege, money and a good lifestyle. Let's all struggle together shall we? They'll certainly be taxed out of existence if Corbyn and Labour ever form a government.

But they do Annie because they are sold a lie-money in your pocket, camaraderie, foreign travel, even a gun to shoot. Many of them just want to feel that they belong somewhere and are part of something. It's the same need that leads them to join gangs (and I don't suppose anybody approves of them giving children guns!)

Jura, we are speaking of a sixteen year old whose parents, teachers, police, neighbours, social services have been unable to help , where else is there support? We have to accept whilst the young need support we also have to accept there are some, for what ever reason, cannot be helped, do not want help, resist help.

I doubt a sixteen year old with these amount of problems would want to join the army , they could quite possibly find any discipline , and apprentices have to accept discipline , not for them. They would not enlist.

We have to bear in mind that although army recruits receive weapons training and are sent to war zones/trouble spots, not all of them take part in armed combat. Many of them are in the catering corps, pharmacy assistants, admin, nursing and many other worthwhile trades that will stand them in good stead when they leave the forces.

A military career has been the making of many young men and women. Of course there will be those that fail but it's all too easy to blame the army for those failures.

'If parents, police, neighbours , social services and teachers all find a sixteen year old difficult it does begger the question - is this sixteen year old beyond human help?'

hopefully not annie- with proper structures, training, apprenticeships, funding, support ...

Are you really saying that if they are almost beyond human help - giving them a gun and sending them to war- will help them sort themselves out?

I just cannot get my head around this concept at all.

I wonder how these young people would fare in a world of zero hours contracts and minimum wage if there was no alternative. Anyone thinking the army is a better option and then being disillusioned is just as likely to do the same in a civilian job. Many youngsters simply do not have a work ethic and if the army isn't for them then what is?

How many people living on the streets with no future prospects and heading for a life of drugs and crime have been nowhere near an army recruitment office?

We are not talking about nagging parents, but about parents who sadly don't have a clue and lead very chaotic lives. All the preventive measures like family centres and parenting classes have been axed in favour of supporting bankers and big capital. I firmly believe that we need to get a grip on these facts and look at ways of supporting families so that these children do not become prey to drugs gangs etc.

Unfortunate things do indeed happen to 16 year olds all the time, army recruitment aside. I want these children to have real choices and real support.

I have just been listening to Phillip Hammond telling us that they are the party of business - so who is the party of ordinary folk struggling to manage I ask myself?

If these young men leave to escape nagging parents do they want to return home or is the street a better option?

I live in an area of high deprivation ,the Army recruitment team is here on a regular basis and in the schools.I totally disagree with this.There are few jobs her and the ones that are tend to be minimum wage and zero hour contracts,mainly hospitality.These kids are being offered what seems to them to be a great deal,money in their pocket a roof over their heads an away from their nagging parents .Whats not to like.Sadly the number who come back totally unfit for work is huge.The number of ex service personnel with mental health issues ,living on the streets grows year on year.The government...whatever its hue,is very good at sending them to conflicts and not so good at taking responsibility for their state when they come home mentally and physically impaired.

Luckygirl, did you see unfortunate things happen for sixteen year olds with no army recruitment involved ?

I don't think these children are beyond human help - it was part of my ethos as a SW to never give up on anyone.

I hear what you are saying merlot - but I guess our views are always affected by our life experiences, and I have seen unfortunate things happy over army recruitment.

Our political parties do at times amuse me.

John McDonald has condemn the Tory Party for bitter infighting!

He stood on s stage of the O2 and called MP’s in his own party ‘f****g losers’

Not necessarily Annie the teenage years are difficult for many and for some children they are especially challenging. That said those years do pass and some (or course not all) of these difficult children pass through and grow up. The intervention of the armed forces at this time disrupts that process completely. They are taken into a closed society and subjected to an authoritarian regime, then at 18 sent off to war zones. The coping skills they might have developed are lost. Many of them have written about returning to civilian life with the same skills they had at 16, but with the additional burden of PTSD. If anyone is interested in the lives of servicemen who condemn the recruitment look at the Veterans For Peace website.

If parents, police, neighbours , social services and teachers all find a sixteen year old difficult it does begger the question - is this sixteen year old beyond human help?

Merlot, a very good post, I totally agree.

There is so much more to the forces than "being trained killers".

Junior solders are able to leave the army any time during the first six months for no reason other than they feel it is not for them. Older recruits have, I think six weeks to change their minds before signing for four years so hardly a press gang situation!!
The army of 100 years ago is a very different place to the army of today. 100 years ago ALL armies treated their soldiers as cannon fodder, so to try and equate then and now is plainly ridiculous. Of course they are trained to kill! How else, if threatened would we protect this country - cuppa and biccies at No 10?! They are also trained in so many other things including civil emergencies. I'm immensely proud of our armed forces and all they've done for the last 100 years and continue to do. I think these Islands are one of the few places in the world where the civilian population are actually not afraid of their own soldiers! That goes for the police as well. I was brought up to believe that a policeman is your friend, and while in every organisation there are bad apples, nothing's perfect, I emphatically still believe that to be true.

A very fair and balanced post Merlot

I come from a military family and although most have now retired my DSIL serves in the RN. The word service is one we should not take lightly. Just forget the killing aspect for one moment, which is usually an act of defence, but think about world events where our young men and women are there to serve others in times of need - not just war.

Evacuating civilians from villages, destroyed by an erupting volcano or a hurricane, transporting vital life saving equipment and personnel with the expertise to rebuild infrastructure, patrolling the dangerous waters of the middle east to prevent piracy and rescuing desperate refugees from the Mediterranean. These are just a few operations that are nowadays taken for granted.

I know very little about army recruitment but I do know that in all the forces there are entry requirements put in place to safeguard the vulnerable. Not everyone makes it past the initial training.

Sorry, Luckygirl but you are making it sound like they willingly take disaffected youth in order to swell the ranks.

Not so.