The Nasty Labour Party - what they really stand for.

I meant to add, They don't all come from privileged backgrounds.

The boys from the Public School will aim straight to Officer status- as you well know.

You seem to have left out the boys and girls from state schools who qualify for officer training because they have the required grades at A level.

I think this thread is entering the realms of fantasy now!
No teenagers are presented with a binary choice, join the army or else stack shelves in a supermarket.Although some of those doing the shelf stacking may well fancy joining the forces as a better and more interesting way of life.
Others certainly won’t, as they may dislike authority, and enjoy their free and easy way of life.
Now that all have had their say on the modern army and services of today, ........any chance of getting back to the LP?
(Won’t hold my breath.)

I find it difficult to believe young people were told even when there were labour governments - either your join the army etc.

No-one has said that at all - but that the recruitment campaigns are targeted at the poorest and morst vulnerable in society, overal.
The boys from the Public School will aim straight to Officer status- as you well know.

Luckygirl is so right when she says 'I do not think it is good enough to say that a vulnerable disaffected child should be presented with Hobson's choice - either you join the army and risk your life, or you doss about on the streets and your life goes down the drain. '

those kids should be given hope, in the form of good apprenticeships and support - not be asked to give a pound or much more of flesh in return. This Hobson's choice of 'either/or' is just not acceptable or even human- and makes one think of Sierra Leone.

As said on Andrew Marr today - the recent military campaigns the UK has got involved with are based on very, very dodgy grounds. 90% of victims of war nowadays are civilians, not military.

Day6 To blame the forces for mental health problems and often a poor upbringing, as so many left wing posters seem to do, is shameful.
If you take someone who is vulnerable and lacks proper support, at a time when their brain is still developing, isolate them, and subject them to an intensive training programme where they are taught to kill, then ship them out at 18 to a war zone do you really think that this hasn't contributed and increased their mental health difficulties.?
There is significant information now about the adolescent brain and its development and the damage done by such treatment.

I doubt it annie - it is not those children that I am talking about and concerned for.

It is not the justification for past wars that is under discussion but the concern about how and who we recruit for the forces now.

We have a boys public school here, there has always been military cadets there, boys younger than sixteen, are they victims of poor education ?

Then this political will has never existed.

It is a career choice. I am just advocating that it should be confined to those who have the capacity to make that choice; and that they are offered something worthwhile outside of the forces to make a choice between.

I do not think it is good enough to say that a vulnerable disaffected child should be presented with Hobson's choice - either you join the army and risk your life, or you doss about on the streets and your life goes down the drain.

We can do better than that if the political will is there.

*trisha and oldbatty you both speak about suffering, refugees etc. When you have spoken to people who have picked up children's body parts, discovered atrocities which I do not think are acceptable to be discussed on an open forum, then you can preach JC.

Without these brave people we would be speaking German, my family has been decimated by 2 world wars. Blair sent my AC to Iraq!! He missed his youngest siblings baptisms!!*

There seems to some confusion between conscripts and those who choose a career in the armed forces.

It is a career choice batty. Members of the armed forces are not gang pressed

Surely during World War One and Two we had conscription and post National Service it is a career choice?

Very good post Luckygirl and PECS. I heard Val McDermid on radio this morning talking about Strathclyde crime initiative, and the only way the cycle can be broken for many young people is by a the type of community initiatives you suggest Lucky and because of the huge funding implications there has to be the political will to do it. Talking about crime she says of our society that we get the type of crime we deserve. Sadly crime is increasingly becoming a career path for many disaffected young people today. I was brought up in an army family and it wouldn't have been my first career choice for my children.

Indeed they have annie- but the situation has been made worse by the testing regime and the ethos - the dreadful Gove has a lot to answer for. All parties bear some of the blame for the mess it is in.My view is that someone needs yo stand back and take a long hard look at the education, social and health policies that are not serving us well. Who might do this I wonder?

Luckygirl, if faults in the education system are to blame these faults have existed for many, many years under both Labour and Conservative governments.

I too voted for Corbyn, I withdrew my support because I was really shocked to learn facts (not smears) about him, I have always supported the Labour Party There has never been a leader without faults, but for me as a party activist to learn whilst we were fighting back after the 1983 election he was fighting against us, and for my personal belief that grief should be respected to learn he invited members of the IRA to Westminster following the Brighton bombing whilst colleagues were grieving showed a lack of respect and indifference. I believe him to be a hypocrite and will not and cannot support him.

I could respect his supporters here if they could acknowledge his failings but they make excuses for those fsilings.

And yes I demonstrated against the Iraq war.

I do agree PECS

I do think that there are things that could be done to help these vulnerable young men:

-an education system that values practical skills too rather than solely emphasising academic achievement as the only worthwhile aim, and forcing teachers down the "get-them-through-the-tests" mindset.
- a proper CAMHS system that is adequately funded and staffed.
- more apprenticeships, that are truly valued as an alternative to university.
- a social housing programme that also includes local services - the council house sales policy has stripped our social housing stock.
- the return of family centres, where young struggling parents used to have the opportunity to learn parenting skills. i.e. a preventive approach.
- a re-think of the drugs legislation.
- I could go on........!

No magic wand annie, but there are real answers that are drowning under political dogma.

I am sure that, as posters above have pointed out, there are many young people who have benefited from joining the armed services - the structure and discipline that has been lacking in their lives is present there. My personal view is that I would like to see those things being present in civvie street by the political will to change policies that condemn these young people to a miserable childhood. Only then could we be sure that those who choose the services are doing so for the right reasons and are young people who have the self-confidence and capacity to make this very serious decision that has the potential to take their lives. I would like to feel that, as a civilised society, we could come up with proper options for these young people, so that the choice of a service career was a positive one, rather than just a way off the streets and out of a life that they should not have suffered in the first place.

I am afraid that I do think that the armed service advertising that emphasizes having mates and companionship is somewhat cynical and smacks of exploitation of these children's vulnerability.

I have to be honest and say that I am glad that none of my chilren chose an army career- I would have been deeply concerned not only for their safety, but also for the political motivations and moral integrity of the wars into which they might find themselves.

It is a vexed and difficult question, but the bottom line for me is that recruits should have the capacity to know what they are taking on before being allowed to join up. I know that there are parents here whose sons and daughters fit that bill, but it is not true of all, and I think that government should be standing back and taking a long hard look at our social policies to create opportunities for these vulnerable children outside of the armed services.

I confess to pacifist leanings - I suspect that this is not appreciated on here! - and have deep concerns about the armed services. We decided against sending our children to the best local school where being in the cadet force was compulsory. We felt this was fundamentally wrong.

Good post, PECS

I have tried not to post on this thread again as it tends to be circular and have not read all posts re young people in the forces so sorry if I replicate previous comments.
Some on here would label me a "Corbyinista" and associate me with whatever derogatory nuances that carries. I voted for JC as leader. I do not believe all the smars and slurs against him but I am also not blind to his faults! None of us are perfect!

I do not like war, or to glorify it and would campaign strongly in support of diplomacy, discussions, negotiation and compromise with "the ememy" before ever sending troops into conflict. Too many lives are lost and damaged..military & civilian. BUT I respect & appreciate those that put themselves forward to be part of the military, particularly those young amd more vulnerable. Someone has to do that difficult job.
I am also greatly angered at the lack of
after support for those whose lives are damaged because they have been on active service.
It is not the individual sevice personnel that I find hard to admire ..just those, of any political persuasion, that choose armed conflict before all other options are exhausted. And decisions not always taken for the reasons given...

Oops - did I mention clear?
More than I am this morning

Day6 - brilliant post, clear, well thought out, eminently clear and sensible.

Very good post Day6
On a lighter note, how do you have such a clear head at 6 in the morning. I did, many years ago, but not now.

Great post Day6

I live in a ‘military town’ families here who have several generations of members of the armed forces.

The army is a career choice, parents have to sign for their child to join up if they are under 18, the army does not sweep into schools and march 16 year olds off to army camps, if the parents don’t agree the boys and girls have to wait untill they are 18.