Northern Ireland and Brexit

Also, for those ( not on here) who confuse 'taking back control' and getting shot of the European Court of Justice (ECJ), the European Court of Human Rights was originally proposed by Winston Churchill and drafted mainly by British lawyers, the Convention was based on the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It was signed in Rome in 1950 and came into force in 1953.

Churchill was the originator of the plan for a united Europe - he saw it was the only way to prevent wars.

Short answer to that Paddyann is No. Churchills attitude was that we the UK should be with Europe but not of Europe. Try not to sneer too much, without this man and our brave service personal we could have been under Nazi Germany for many many years, which might just might have been worse than Westminster!

wasn't CHURCHILL the creator of the original idea of a united Europe NFK I did believe he was the darling of English politics so surely he couldn't ever be wrong?

On another thread someone commended May's 'patient answers' to Marr yesterday. This is how she responded to his questions on the NI border: Patiently stonewalling, perhaps. She knows that we can't possibly avoid a hard border post Brexit unless we stay in the Single Market and the Customs Union (Norway option) and she has firmly ruled that out. She daren't tell the truth. It's contemptible.

Hopefully Patrick Kielty will not be dismissed as just an expert spreading Project Fear, he is a brave young man as was his Father.

Nope. I’m all depressed.

Well, I suppose since leaving is most likely going to fail we may as well break up the UK and just be four separate countries

Remaining is far less likely to see that happen.

And cheer up; we're likely to be long dead before a federated Europe happens (if it ever happens.) Our children might, in any case be happier with that than with being the 51st state of the federal USA....

Well, I suppose since leaving is most likely going to fail we may as well break up the UK and just be four separate countries. Just more states in the Federation of Europe as the French and Germans originally planned after the war. As Mr Tusk and Co intend. We are after all one of the milk cows they can’t afford to loose.

Just a wee reminder that NI voted with a solid majority to stay in EU. We were very aware of the implications of Brexit for us.
But for those glibly suggesting we become a united Ireland, you clearly aren't taking on board the strong feelings of culture and identity that permeates this place. All of course made toxic by the legacy of the Troubles. I lived my entire adulthood through this time. It was much worse than those of you in rest of UK can even begin to imagine. Terrible acts of horror by both sides. Not easy to forgive or forget.

The Irish are known for their friendliness but they have long memories.

All these folk are being ignored and disrespected, just like the three quarters of the British population who did not vote for this catastrophe. We have never been so let down by politicians.

What about Gibraltar too? They wish to stay British and also in the EU - Spain of course thinks otherwise. The border there is very easy as it is just one road and can easily be patrolled. The people living in Gibraltar - plus the military personnel there - do much of their shopping in Spain and many Spanish work in Gibraltar town,
Then there is the Falklands - they trade a lot with the EU and do not wish to leave.

There is an obvious solution , and only one solution, to the problem of the Irish border - the UK must REMAIN in the EU.

I did not have to think long before I decided to vote remain, but I did think about the NI border problem, although I have never been to NI, I am old enough, as most grannies are, to remember the Troubles, the death and devastation caused by sectarianism, and the great achievement of the Good Friday Agreement.

If you voted Leave, and you are old enough to be a granny, and you did not even consider the consequenses for the island of Ireland, you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. Now that you have been told how disastrous brexit could be, I trust you will think again and vote Remain if you get another opportunity.

At the end of the day- whether we understand it, or agree with it- it irrelevant. It is where we are, and there is nothing we can do to change it. Unification of Ireland will not happen now, and will not be forced upon NI because of Brexit.

And therefore, there is NO solution to the Irish border- none whatsoever- and it will cause the demise of Brexit very likely. And the other fact is that if Mrs May loses more support, and has to call an election - without the support of the DUP - she, and the Conservatives with her, will be done fore.

Did anyone say Hobson's choice? I don't want JC either.

its Scottish oil that underwrites the debts ,thats oil from our coastal waters even the 6000 square miles reassigned to England the night before we got devolution by Blair and Donald Dewar .

Oh dear niggly Westminster will hang on to Scotland by fair means or foul ..and have .Mrs May recently stated there wont be another Scottish referendum and Corbyn swiftly followed suit.We are too valuable to them for them to let us go.The rest of the Uk has been fed the lie that we cost them money for so long that they beleive it.Look at the facts ,find the Westminster accounts from a century befoe OIL and see that we gave far more than we ever got back to the UK purse.After oil of course our contribution is massive ,even though they continue to tell us oil is running out we see almost daily the sale of yet another license to extract it from our coast.200 million just yesterday ,1.5 TRILLION according to the awful Woods who told us it would be dry in just a decade during the run up to 2014 .No Westminster will find any way they can to keep us"in our place" where they prosper from our wealth and we get poorer by the day .

Watching the IRA bombers and the antagonistic marches and fighting was horrible and very confusing for me. Rather like watching the fighting between Shia and Sunni now.

That's why the history of Ireland is so significant. There are hatreds entrenched over hundreds of years involved (sadly religion plays a huge part in it even up to the present day)

Hundreds of years of entrenched positions can't be eradicated by a few years of negotiated peace. The Good Friday Agreement has given NI a breathing space but it's a precarious peace and it is seriously threatened by the possibility of an imposition of a border between NI and the ROI. For some a border check isn't showing a passport and a friendly wave through. It's memories of violence and armed soldiers at border posts and the imposition of a divide between two parts of Ireland which some NI inhabitants passionately don't want to be divided. As Keilty explains, the GFA is a 'fudge' and it's a 'fudge' that works. It suits both sides. Upsetting the equilibrium it has maintained is almost inevitably the way to stir up the Troubles again. And there is no practicable way of imposing the border that Brexit makes absolutely necessary.

Every one wants peace ! but only on their terms ..... sigh . There is a tribunal about the green energy and the opinion is that the lunatics are running the asylum . Some individuals were running green energy boilers simply to get the subsidy , the subsidy was more than the running costs .. ££ more

Not yet, Maisie.

I know about the green energy mess, but why haven’t they sorted it by now? Do they want to?

Watching the IRA bombers and the antagonistic marches and fighting was horrible and very confusing for me. Rather like watching the fighting between Shia and Sunni now.

Do you think Aggie that views are too entrenched? From here it does seem that many (not all) Irish don’t want peace.

I live it , have friends both sides and am constantly taken aback when prejudice casually raises its head , ideas seem to be imbibed with mothers milk and sane educated people still have entrenched views . I have kept my head down and tried not to take sides but I do have many bitter memories going back to the 40s when our neighbours , policemen , constantly stopped my Father , I think his Scottish accent pulled him out of some holes , then landed him in an other !

Understanding is a different matter.

Are you any closer to understanding it now, Nfk?

Yes, I get that, of course NfkD. Having friends and family on both sides have probably helped me see just how entrenched people still are, and the reasons why. It also encouraged me to study the issues more deeply, as I just could not get my head around it at all.

I saw it of course. Understanding is a different matter.

As I lived in the East Midlands for such a long time, I'm afraid I know a lot about the wicked enclosures - I also studied the issues as part of my B.Ed.Hons Degree. Wicked times indeed.

As for not knowing about the recent period of NI/Irish history, I have to say I am just massively surprised. Did you never see or hear news about the IRA and Ulster murders- the bombs in Brimingham, the PO Tower in London, and the very recent Omagh bomb massacre, about the Orange Men and their marches, etc, etc. No need to study those to be aware of what they mean to people on both sides- who both remember friends and family targeted and murdered, and so many innocent who were mowed down in their prime. It is all VERY recent- young adult in their 40s remember it all so well, not just their parents and grandparents. If we are walking with the GC and family, my SIKL still throws himself on the ground if a car backfires - and that in leafy green Sussex.

Any more than I expect you know what was happening in East Anglia with enclosures, famines and rebellions here.

And why shouldn't I know about all that, Nfk?