Northern Ireland and Brexit

The collapse of the NI Parliament is interesting NikDumpling and the story behind it is being kept very quiet. Possibly because it doesn't reflect well on the Government's best friends the DUP. It is tied in to a green enrgy scheme which seems to have been if not a deliberate then certainly an accidental scam.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cash-for-ash-arlene-foster-dup-tory-deal-energy-scandal-sinn-fein-martin-mcguinness-resign-first-a7787511.html
Arlene Foster of course claims to have no knowledge of what was going on. And it was her refusal to resign that led to the fall of the power sharing agreement
Questions over the Democratic Unionists’ handling of the overspending Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) led to the collapse of political power sharing at Stormont early last year.
The DUP’s former coalition partners Sinn Fein have refused to retake their seats around the ministerial table and endless rounds of negotiations have not persuaded them.
Mrs Foster was enterprise minister when the flawed RHI scheme was being designed.
Controls to limit the scheme’s costs were not introduced and overly generous subsidies saw the taxpayer bill spike dramatically.
Mrs Foster has contested claims by a successor minister, former party colleague Jonathan Bell, that she asked him to keep the scheme open.
After Mr Bell’s allegations were made public Mrs Foster was asked by Sinn Fein to step aside from her role as Stormont’s first minister.
When she refused the late Sinn Fein deputy first minister Martin McGuinness resigned and triggered the collapse of the devolved institutions.
So arguably the best friend of the Tory party is responsible for the collapse

Of course I know what happened 300 years ago Maisie and about the potato famine but not the bits in between. Any more than I expect you know what was happening in East Anglia with enclosures, famines and rebellions here.

What I’m trying to explain is why I don’t know and asking why it still persists. Is the collapse of the Irish Parliament purely due to Brexit? Was us joining the EU the sole reason for peace in Ireland?

And I agree Jura about Mrs May and JC. (Although I’m probably very ignorant about this too)

NFKD 'Of course I voted for Brexit for my own reasons, and the situation in NI didn’t arise. '

and of course, this is understandable. So many many issues re the consequences of Brexit were not known and not considered - no surprise there since we were given NO information, and the little we go from experts was deemed 'project fear'.

But here is the contradiction - whenever a real issue is mentionned, Brexiters say 'oh but I did not think about this at the time, or oh, but I didn't realise that, or oh I didn't know that, etc'

and yet keep saying over and over again 'but we knew exactly and clearly what we were voting for'.

So, which is it? Can't be both, sorry.

So I waited, patiently ...

and no-one has found a workable solution. Perhaps then we can confirm the conclusion most experts have agreed on- there is none.

Now, personally- I agree that a united Ireland does seem like the perfect solution. But- as Kielty explains so well, this is NOT going to happen, not for at least 2 or 3 generations, and probably never. Go and talk to people from Omagh, or Armagh (as I have because of family ties) - and even the moderates, not the Marching Orange men types, will say NO, NEVER. Some of them, because of their business, cross over several times a day- with part of the business or farm on one side, part on the other.

But - leaving history aside, and back to Mrs May, the Conservatives, Brexit and JC. If you do not want JC as Prime Minister - then Mrs May and the Tories losing the support of the DUP - will give you JC on a silver platter at this stage. Perhaps ponder about this- but it is clear as a bell.

And quite quiet not quite.

Speech recognition not working properly this morning must reboot the phone :-)

Apologies should be "stated" above not "started."

Why? If Paddyann is to be believed Scotland is desperate to leave the UK. Lots of people in NI are equally desperate to rejoin the south. After all they were for centuries one country, why not again? Scotland equally was for centuries an independent country ditto Wales, so if that's what people want, then so be it!

So, when the Unionists in Northern Ireland start bombing England and Southern Ireland for "selling them out" you would be happy with that would you nigglynellie?

As Jerry Adams started not so long ago "the gunman have not gone away, they are just gone quite."

But Northern Ireland did NOT want to have independence from England - that is why the six counties came into being as Northern Ireland - mainly the division is on religious grounds,
Eire would quite likely be happy to see reunification of the two parts but the North still does not wish for this
Despite the treatment of the Irish people by English land owners many of them volunteered for the British Army etc in both WW1 and 2 .
If you want to see about how they were treated in the the late 1800s just look up the Potato famine!

We in evil England won't stand in your way, in fact some of us would heave a sigh of relief!

Oh dear....

As all the ills of these Islands are since the dawn of time, undoubtedly 100% the fault of England, then independence and reunification for those discontents would seem to be the answer - Bring it on, what's the problem? We in evil England won't stand in your way, in fact some of us would heave a sigh of relief!

But none of it it seems is the fault of the Irish and their inability to get on

Oh, bl**dy hell. I don't believe what I'm reading here.

It's not about a couple of kids having a spat in the playground, you know. It's about a deep and very longstanding sectarian divide that was actually, as Paddyanne rightly points out, caused by the English over at least 3 centuries of repression and persecution of Roman Catholics. And English attitudes that regarded the Irish as uncivilised 'natives', fit to be cannon fodder in our armies, fit to dig canals and build railways, but at the same to be despised and feared because they were 'different'. Well, they were foreigners really, weren't they? They spoke a different language and had a different religion (sounds familiar, this) and didn't behave as they should...

And you, Nfk by your apparent utter ignorance of British history manage to reduce all this to 'they don't get on with each other' and to apparently view the prospect of fresh 'Troubles' in NI as insignificant...

So, it’s Westminster’s fault there’s no Northern Irish government? I’m genuinely interested as I only know what the BBC care to tell.

I live about as far away from Northern Ireland as you can get within in the UK. Few Irish come this way and those that do never talk about their homeland apart from saying the countryside is beautiful. I’ve never been there. I went to Eire once on a coach holiday (and it is beautiful) and it took two days solid travelling before we saw the Irish Sea, let alone crossed it.

Of course I voted for Brexit for my own reasons, and the situation in NI didn’t arise. Why should it? When we travel outside the UK we usually use our local airport and go via Holland. Closer and quicker. If, as occasionally happens we need to leave the airport, I need to show my passport, it’s not a problem, a quick glance at the photo, a bit of friendly chat and banter and we’re on our way. It never occurred to me that civil war would break out again if there were border checks in Ireland as I understood the IRA were no more and political discussions are now the way. Which is why I’m so puzzled as to why the Northern Irish government is still not sitting. (As a matter of further curiosity, are they still getting paid?)

Maisie has accused us who voted to leave the EU for all the underlying problems in Northern Ireland. But none of it it seems is the fault of the Irish and their inability to get on. The time line of us being in the Common Market and then the European Union does not coincide with the cessation of hostilities in Northen Ireland or the removal or reinstatement of border checks, so why would we equate the two?

NFK and thats the root of the problem,the vast majority of English folk aren't interested in NI ..or Scotland for thet matter .They just want us to shut up and let them run things their way ,regardless of how it affects the rest of us.Thats how its always been but times change and we wont be sidelined much longer .Ireland deserves respect and peace for its people ,Mrs May and her muppets cant promise that so they need to find a solution or walk away from Brexit.

So, let's have some real solutions from the Brexitiers.

I fear that the real situation in Ireland will not be brought home to the hardline Brexitiers until we witness once again the dead horses and military personnel of the Household Cavalry laying in the Mail London.

Only then will the real Irish "problem" be known or remembered by them.

^ I don’t feel responsible for something which happened 300 years ago, or whenever it was^.

We're not talking about something which happened 300 years ago, Nfk, we're talking about something that happened in our lifetimes. Something that lasted for 30 years of pain and horror, not only for the people of NI, but also for many on mainland Britain. Something that was halted by the Good Friday Agreement and brought peace, however uneasy, to NI.

With a continuing peace there is an opportunity for reconciliation and a growing understanding between the factions but it is a process which takes time, it doesn't happen over night. It takes many years.

However, in terms of the time it will take to heal the divisions in NI the peace has barely got going. Now the Brexit vote has put it in very real jeopardy, as Patrick Keilty points out, by the need to impose a border somewhere should Brexit go ahead. It cannot be fudged.

In which case, I think Leave voters will be very much responsible should the troubles be stirred up again.

NikDumpling of course the hate and the prejudice is still there. You do realise the deaths and the murders on both sides weren't that long ago. I don't know if you watched Patrick Keilty's programme about his father's death at the hands of Loyalist extremists. That he has grown up free from prejudice and bias is remarkable. He and people like him want a solution, but it seems the British government is intent on making sure they don't get one.

Yes, I support same sex marriage and a woman’s right to choose in Northern Ireland as well as the rest of the UK. Does that help?

Sorry, but I just can’t feel responsible for the inability of the Irish of whatever religion (since they seem to believe that Protestants and Catholics worship a different God) being able to get on and live together. I don’t feel responsible for something which happened 300 years ago, or whenever it was.

There are borders all over the world but they’re not all fenced along their entire length with razor tape and high fences. Only hatred, tribalism and prejudice necessitates this and that must still be there in Eire and Northern Ireland. Hidden by self delusion perhaps, but still there simmering and waiting for an excuse to break out. If it wasn’t Brexit sooner or later some other excuse would occur. Blaming the rest of the UK just doesn’t wash.

No, I don’t have a solution to the ‘Irish Problem’ because I don’t believe the Irish want one.

jura2, do you remember the great recording "Silence is Golden" by the Tremeloes. It seems that is what we have here.

www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/950636658453500/

youtu.be/3Z5nmFcBGvY

Just one question to any Leaver- a simple one.

Please demonstrate a viable solution for the Irish Border. Please. The floor is all yours- and in respect of that- I shall keep stumm until tomorrow and wait in hope.

GranyGravey13, apparently Switzerland's economic and trade relations with the EU are mainly governed through a series of bilateral agreements where Switzerland has agreed to take certain aspects of EU legislation in exchange for accessing part of the EU's single market in that, Switzerland pay contributions into the EU for those agreements.

The above does also does not cover all imports/exports between both parties but only certain products and services. The foregoing would obviously would not be suitable for a UK agreement with the European Union.

I believe that commercial vehicles have to stop at the border to confirm that the goods they are transporting are part of those agreements or not as the case may be.

I believe that it was the above that the truck driver was referring to in the phone in to JRM