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Wedding cake for gay couple

(102 Posts)
maddyone Wed 10-Oct-18 19:03:42

I've just seen the BBC news and an item about a wedding cake that an evangelical couple in Belfast refused to make for a gay couple. Of course, there is no legal gay marriage in Northern Ireland, but it seems to me that this judgement does none the less beg the question, do religious rights trump civil rights, or vice versa?

maddyone Wed 10-Oct-18 19:10:48

Apparently I've got the story a bit wrong, that'll teach me to post before doing a bit of research! It seems the cake was required for an International Gay Rights Day. Anyway, regardless of whether the cake was a wedding cake, as reported by the BBC, or was required for a Gay Rights Day, it seems the central question remains the same, should civil rights or religious rights have preference?

MawBroon Wed 10-Oct-18 19:18:18

It was the principle of the message they were expected to pipe on the cake, as I understand it, not the sexuality of the customers.
Imagine if a Jewish bakery were oblige to pipe an anti-Semitic message?
Or a Muslim baker, something offensive to Islam?
Or you or I obliged to pipe some racist or anti- immigrant message?
I think the verdict was the right one but no doubt there will be all sorts of protests for the wrongreasons.

maddyone Wed 10-Oct-18 19:23:12

I understand your reasoning Maw but none the less, as a person with religious belief, I believe that discrimination is not part of the Christian religion. Also a mother of a Gay son, I support Gay Rights.

MawBroon Wed 10-Oct-18 19:24:13

Look at my putative examples.
I rest my case.

merlotgran Wed 10-Oct-18 19:28:56

If a member of the Countryside Alliance went to a baker and asked for 'Support Foxhunting' to be iced on a cake and the baker refused. Would that baker be sued or applauded?

Surely people are entitled to their opinions and beliefs without being forced to support something they disagree with?

Anniebach Wed 10-Oct-18 19:31:56

I agree with the decision.

Maddy are they evangelical or just Christians who do not believe in same sex marriage ? Is this discrimination ?

maddyone Wed 10-Oct-18 19:41:37

In The Guardian it says that they were evangelical Christians Annie, but I don't know more than that.

janeainsworth Wed 10-Oct-18 19:54:43

I agree with Maw.
No-one should be forced to express support for a position or for values with which they disagree.

lemongrove Wed 10-Oct-18 20:00:27

The judge made the right decision.It was purely the message, and not the sexuality of the customer.

maddyone Wed 10-Oct-18 20:04:05

I think Annie, if it was me, if I was the baker, I would feel I was discriminating against the Gay person. I would have just made the cake. But I have to set my position against the fact that one of my two sons is gay. He had a civil ceremony a few years ago, and we have completely accepted that he is gay, has a lovely partner, and a lovely adopted child. I love my son and my grandchild and cannot bear the thought of him being discriminated against in any way.

lemongrove Wed 10-Oct-18 20:07:41

I doubt your son insisted that the baker iced that particular slogan on a cake though Maddy.
The customer soon found another baker in any case.

maddyone Wed 10-Oct-18 20:30:58

You're absolutely right Lemon, his cake was made and iced by his partner's mother, and very nice it was too. If course, the event was purely civil, it didn't take place in a religious establishment of any kind. In fact, my son wanted one of the pieces of music to be Ave Maria, but it wasn't allowed, no religious music of any kind. Which was sad, but he got over it! His son now attends a religious school, it's the nearest school to them. I worried about discrimination and/or attacks as he lived in London, and there are attacks on gay people every year in London, some people are murdered. But my husband says that in his line of work, he's a barrister in a top set of chambers, he will not meet discrimination amongst the people he works with, and he hasn't, though he doesn't advertise that he is gay to solicitors or clients when he is working. He doesn't look or appear gay in any way ie he is not remotely camp, so he doesn't attract attention, nor does his partner. But like many things in life, unless you experience the reality of the worry of discrimination or even attacks, then it is difficult to comprehend. Thankfully gay discrimination is far less common these days, but it still exists.

varian Wed 10-Oct-18 20:34:24

There already is a other thread on this topic. I wonder if GNHQ can amalgimate them?

PECS Wed 10-Oct-18 20:38:58

MAW the examples you give would possibly contravene the law in that they could be construed as inflammatory! Anti-racist language is not acceptable in the eyes of the law and therefore any baker would be right to refuse the job. .

The message 'Support Gay marriage' offended these particular fundamentalist "Christians" but the phrase was not in anyway illegal. I know other people (my brother & SiL) who are evangelical Christians who would support the phrase.. so to me it is a poor and disappointing judgement. The bakers based their refusal on personal preference not on any universal religious doctrine.

PECS Wed 10-Oct-18 20:42:43

Lemongrove I expect that Black & Irish immigrants in the 40s and 50s found a landlord to rent a room from when refused by racists. Did not make the racist landlords justified!

lemongrove Wed 10-Oct-18 20:44:50

Maddy smile it’s a Mothers lot to worry isn’t it?
However your son sounds as if has a very solid family relationship and a good career, for which you must be very thankful.

lemongrove Wed 10-Oct-18 20:49:09

PECS ... no it didn’t, but we are not talking racists here.
The judge found that a baker does not have to ice a message on a product that he himself does not agree with.
What if a Palestinian here asked a baker to ice ‘Down with Israel!’ On a cake?
That is what the Supreme Court judge applied to this case.
It’s the message, not the cake.

Eglantine21 Wed 10-Oct-18 20:49:35

So could a shopkeeper refuse to sell Easter cards or Diwali cards. They could couldn’t they -just not stock them.

Could a dressmaker say ‘I don’t make Halloween costumes.” I think they could.

I think probably the judgement was correct. Not a baker that I would be using though. And not someone that would make me want to have anything to do with the Christian faith.

maddyone Wed 10-Oct-18 20:50:29

Yes Lrmon, you're right, it is a mother's lot to worry, and you're also right in that he has a solid, loving, and supportive family, and and a very successful career. All things to thank the Lord for, in my opinion.

Anniebach Wed 10-Oct-18 21:22:18

maddy, thank you. I wish your son, his partner and thir son a happy life x

maddyone Wed 10-Oct-18 21:36:00

Thank you Annie, and you know I wish the same for you. X

Anniebach Wed 10-Oct-18 21:38:55

Yes Maddy I know x

PECS Wed 10-Oct-18 22:08:25

Lemongrove As I said to MAW anything that could be construed as racially motivated would be justifiably refused. Glad you are not being personal wink

NfkDumpling Wed 10-Oct-18 22:19:21

There was a chap from a LGBT organisation on Radio 4 (only caught a bit of the discussion) who came out in favour of the baker as it means a gay baker could say no to icing on an anti-gay message.