Peoples' Vote March Saturday 20th October

Winding up the Brexit alarm clock in March 2017 by activating Article 50 was a reckless decision. It was always going to be incredibly difficult to secure a withdrawal agreement within a timeframe of just two years. And while the EU member states have approached the negotiations in a comradely spirit, the UK Tory government has done its very best to erode any goodwill in Brussels.

As each day passes with no agreement, a ‘no deal’ scenario becomes ever more likely. That would be catastrophic for jobs, the economy and consumer rights. But there are ways to secure more time. One is to extend the Article 50 timetable. As Nicola Sturgeon said this week, the only deal that is likely to secure Commons support is one where we remain in both the Single Market and the Customs Union.

There is no such thing as a good Brexit, but this is the least-worst option for the UK’s economy. If the Article 50 timetable is extended, it may give us time for this more sensible solution to be agreed. Or, ideally, we could stop the clock altogether.

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/catherine-stihler-brexit-is-not-inevitable-uk-can-change-its-mind-1-4815994

"the impasse is totally an own goal"

Rubbish.

So, you join a community, for trading purposes, (which over the years morphs into something so far removed from the original it's frightening) and pay billions every year to be part of it, more than most member states pay, but cannot get out unless the governing body says so and dictates the terms and conditions?

Hmmm.

Is the EU run a bit like Hotel California? You can check out any time you like but you can never leave?

Day 6 'Their lack of respect towards the UK and our negotiators is becoming transparent. They have created an impasse. '

the impasse is totally an own goal. It has always been clear that the UK, or any member, can cherry pick the bits their want (eg all the rights but none of the obligations - like Free movement, for instance) - and that it is not possible to have a land border with the EU without a border and the relevant checks, be it for people, cattle and goods.

Clear from day one- and a long time before. So why is that 'disrespectful', it is just plain common sense.

Maizie I have posted the thing about the pound v the dollar a few times and it is never picked up upon, possibly because Leavers have no answer to it. Once on a non-Brexit thread someone said it made exports cheaper but didn't mention that meant that imports are dearer.

I was surprised that our EU membership entitled us to special trade deals with 70 countries, I thought it would be less than that. It surprises me that no one has found that interesting enough to comment or even suggest how we can get such trade deals when not part of the EU.

Hey ho, not going to start another thread which will go from reasoned debate to thorough nastiness.

Same planet as you MaizieD a Remainer who keeps reminding us how her glorious EU isn't likely to play ball with the UK. You paint member states in a bad light.

Do Remainers want a good deal for the UK or are they still so wound up that the referendum didn't go their way that they delight in all the stumbling blocks our government has to face? Remember, if Corbyn had the negotiator's role, he'd have faced the same intransigence and lack of respect from the EU. If he hadn't handed the reins/shackles back to Brussels by now, that is.

You look through a different lens MaizieD.

I'd say things were " starting to look a bit desperate" for the EU.

The Chequers deal doesn't suit them, or us, but are they offering terms we want which don't tie us to Brussels and make us an EU vassal state for the foreseeable future?

Nope.

They desperately don't want us to play the "no deal" card. That is an option we have and Barnier and Tusk know it. They could trip up and face the wrath of member states too.

Their lack of respect towards the UK and our negotiators is becoming transparent. They have created an impasse.

It takes two to tango, as the saying goes. The EU seem out of step. They are more likely to falter than we are I suspect.

OOh, Sorry, nonnie

Why don't you start another thread. We could at least have a bit of a discussion before the inevitable bunfight starts

Remainers seem incapable of going with the flow. They are painting the EU states as vindictive and meddlesome when it is in their interests too not to antagonize the UK.

YOU WHAT!!!

Remainers are painting the EU states as vindictive and meddlesome?!!!

What planet are you on today, Day6?

We will guarantee the rights and status of EU citizens who've moved here to the UK but the EU offers no such reciprocal deal.

This is so funny, Day6, though I doubt you intended it to be.

Just after the referendum there were heated debates on this forum about whether or not the rights of people from other EU countries currently living in the UK should be guaranteed. As I recall it, the Leavers were vehemently against the UK making an immediate unilateral declaration of guaranteeing those rights. "Oh no!" they all said. "Rights are a bargaining chip. We shouldn't give 'them' any rights unless we're getting a reciprocal guarantee for UK citizens"

So the UK government pratts about for 2 years, failing to come up with a coherent plan that the tory party (and leading Brexiters) can agree with and reneging on agreements, all the time clutching their 'citizens' rights' chip to their chests. But now, when things are starting to look just a tad desperate for the UK, and there doesn't seem to be a lot left to offer the EU, the UK has produced their chip with a flourish.

And, guess what? The EU states are so pissed off with idiocy and incompetence shown by the UK in 'negotiations' over the past 2 years that they just aren't interested in our 'chip'.

Karma...

I've posted twice with facts but not one person has picked up on them. Seems this is not about rational debate just simply a bun fight.

Can you imagine member states in any way cutting off an income source?

Nope. Me neither.

Arrangements will be made but it's good to whip up a bit of fear that ex pats comfortable lives will be jeopardised.

Remainers seem incapable of going with the flow. They are painting the EU states as vindictive and meddlesome when it is in their interests too not to antagonize the UK.

The EU does not want to lose the UK. We hold more cards than Remainers ( and Mrs May) would have us believe.

I can't think why, but I get the strangest feeling that the intent behind it is not benign.

I wasn't aware that I'd asked the question twice, I thought it was only once but then these threads are becoming a little like Groundhog Day.

I'm not hounding jura - quite the opposite in fact. Surely asking if she voted in the referendum is acceptable when she often demands input from those who voted to Leave?

P.S I imagine that however members of the EU27 'plan' the outcome will be that travel across Europe for UK citizens will become far more complex than at present as each EU country will make its own arrangements...

Is it not possible for the EU to guarantee the rights of expats ...?

The 'EU' makes no decisions about the rights of UK immigrants in EU countries. As each member state is sovereign it is up to them to decide how to treat UK immigrants in the event of 'no deal'. France has already responded (see the separate thread jura has started) by stating in their 'no deal' planning that UK immigrants in France will be treated as if from a 'third country' from 30th March 2019, with all that implies.

It remains to be seen how other EU countries will plan to treat their UK immigrants.

It's amazing isn't it. We will guarantee the rights and status of EU citizens who've moved here to the UK but the EU offers no such reciprocal deal. Do we really want to be in partnership with these EU thugs who resort to blackmail because they are terrified of us taking away the billions we have to Brussels every year to remain members?

Oh and the economies of Spain and France would certainly suffer if Brits were told to pack their bags or remain with no rights. A mass exodus? Can you imagine? Ex pats contribute to economies rather than drain them. Talk about cutting off noses to spite faces!

The EU is resorting to full-on project fear. It is being spiteful making such threats.

The sooner we cut ties and withdraw funding the better.

Is it not possible for the EU to guarantee the rights of expats if there is no deal or doesn't the EU want to?

It is heartening to know that so many British expats from all over the EU are flying over to take past in the march. Especially now we know that their rights in the EU will not be guaranteed in case of a no deal - be it on residency, work permits, healthcare, driving licences, and so so much more.

I shall be with them in spirit- and so wish I didn't have to cancel at the last minute.

No, Jalima. All that the posts you're referring to (I think) said was that analysis of voting in the referendum showed that, over all, the higher level of education a person had the more likely they were to have voted Remain. It is perfectly possible to be poorly educated and still not be 'stupid'.

But if you want to start a bun fight on a different topic from hounding jura, feel free.

Simple enough question?

I can't think why, but I get the strangest feeling that the intent behind it is not benign.

There is a very big difference between being stupid and being ill informed, Jalima.
Ah

so all those posts over two years criticising the intelligence of people who voted Brexit were wrong?

Just ill-informed now, not stupid.

It's not a case of being stupid, it's the fact that most people don't have in depth experience in all these different fields.

I think that we have been painfully discovering that politicians don't have that, either. It is usual for politicians in government office to take advice from a whole range of experts in whatever field their brief lies, as well as listen to their civil servants. This seems to have gone by the board in the matter of Brexit.

Simple enough question?

Second time you’ve asked that merlot
Maybe third time lucky? ?

Why on earth are you hounding jura about whether or not she voted?

Jalima you've put your finger on the real problem. The future of the country is being decided by people with no specialist knowledge of trade, finance, economics, or research and even with full details of the final agreement a lot of people will still be going on gut feelings. It's not a case of being stupid, it's the fact that most people don't have in depth experience in all these different fields. That's why we are usually governed by politicians not referenda.

If people were allegedly too stupid to know what they were voting for in the referendum and therefore did not vote 'properly' how are they going to know what they will be voting for if they are given a final say on the Brexit Deal?

There is a very big difference between being stupid and being ill informed, Jalima.