‘Grenfell’ bonfire

No EllanVanin. Neither is putting people in stocks , mob rule is certainly not civilised.

For me any act of cruelty brings the question - why did they do it? not to excuse the act of cruelty but to learn from it

Bluebelle I have no doubt it was done with malice aforethought, but I still think the reason they did it was because they thought it was 'funny', just like that stupid ITV producer thought his costume was 'funny'.

There will always be people who think it is 'funny' to mock the afflicted.

Tbh, its beyond comprehension, and while I agree mob violence is not the answer, I simply don't know what is! Maybe somebody needs try and find out what goes on in these peoples minds that makes them behave so appallingly, and think that this appalling behaviour is acceptable and 'normal'?!!!

Exactly niggly, people such as these were once innocent children, were they taught to think of the victims of the tower as they do, did they experience events which fuelled this awful act

At one level, in the short run, I don’t care what led them to behave like this. I just want them dealt with. In the longer run, of course it matters what caused this behaviour but I doubt there’s any simple answer to that. Why are people child abusers, why do some men beat their wives? Calling out unacceptable behaviour is necessary, regardless of what led to it( unless we are talking about for example severe mental health problems). FWIW I remember some horrendous racist attitudes being expressed about GT at the time it happened - a lot of ‘othering’ - and so I wonder if some people’s attitudes towards GT were fostered and developed at that time and have been festering ever since?

Anniebach you would never get to the bottom of why people commit such heinous crimes------they probably don't know themselves why they do it.
Depravation in early life isn't always the excuse either as a lot of people who've witnessed this have gone on to succeed with the aim of getting away from such a dire situation.
BTW,I don't do " mob rule " either. I leave that to the yobs.

EllanVannin, I didn’t speak of excuses , I believe in exploring reasons not excuses.

My reference to mob rule was to the call for stocks

It's not funny , amusing , fair game nor remotely appropriate to burn effigies of human beings for what, sport ,to appease the hatred some people hold of politicians . Do politicians not have a right to expect to do their job without suffering such hatred in this country anymore .?

Have we become sanitised to the hate filled placards, effigies used by activists to attack the opposition?

If the BNP or EDL set fire to an effigy of a politician or human being would they too be viewed as having the right to do so because ' politicians are fair game'. Of course not there would be uproar but it would be hypocrisy if you find it acceptable at any other time.

The hypocrisy of who, what and when vile acts can take place is as disgusting and what does it say ?

Those involved in the ' Grenfell ' effigy burning were pathetic and hate filled but when equivalent pathetic and hate filled occurrences happen such as effigies of humans/politicians are burnt, politicians hanging from ropes, politicians called the most vile , hate filled names on placards at demonstrations nothing is said, WHY?

Over the last 2/3 years politics has gained momentum in vileness, abusive acts and rhetoric. After the murder of Jo Cox the rally cry was ' HOPE NOT HATE ' , the call for respect in the political arena. What appears to have happened is it has become entrenched in the human Psyche for some , certainly not all, to think politicians are fair game .

Do those who find no issue with burning effigies of politicians, vile placards, effigies of politicians hanging from ropes, knives in their back etc. not a ' HATE CRIME ' ?

What does the burning of effigies , vile Packards, effigies of politicians hanging from ropes if deemed fair game say to our children?

What does the burning of effigies, vile placards, effigies of politicians hanging from ropes say about those who find it amusing?

I do wonder if it was Corbyn or Dianne Abbotts effigies being burnt if voices would be so quiet and find it amusing. I know I wouldn't find it amusing nor fair game.

If I lived in Lewes or indeed ever went to a demonstration they would be the last place I would take my children because I couldn't explain how bigotry and hate is acceptable if and when it suits.

Tony Blair said ‘Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.’ I agree with him in essence, but has being tough on the causes of crime made any difference? I don’t know the answer to that, although I believe violent crime has increased in recent years. Furthermore, was this horrible behaviour a crime? Again, I don’t know the answer. Maybe it is a hate crime, I don’t know about that either.
What I do know is that it’s an awful thing for someone/some people to have done. They must be depraved in my opinion, if they feel it’s acceptable to perpetrate such a horrible event in such a way.

An EXCELLENT post POGS. I agree with every word you said.

The police have never been given a chance to be " tough on crime " because of the bleeding hearts and of course the media reporting the least tug of anyone's collar.

It doesn’t really matter in one way if this incident is eventually ruled a ‘crime’. Not all crimes are unacceptable or immoral or unethical and not all non- criminal behaviour is acceptable, ethical or moral.

The people who did this are no different from the posh bullies of the Bullingdon Club, (ex members include Boris Johnson, David Cameron and George Osborne) who thought it funny to trash pubs and generally cause mayhem.

Class doesn't enter in to it, stupid unpleasant people who think other people's suffering is something to laugh at can be found in every social group.

I wonder how many people were aware of the Lewis tradition? I didn’t know until a few years ago when there was an issue about an effigy of a ‘gypsy’ caravan and another of Alec Salmond. As I’ve said I don’t like it and would never go but I still don’t think it’s morally equivalent to this incident.

Bravo POGS

The bleeding hearts didn’t prevent 23 people being killed in
police custody 2017/2018 EllanVannin

Mareliuza

"As I’ve said I don’t like it and would never go but I still don’t think it’s morally equivalent to this incident."

I think it is as morally abhorrent to burn an effigy of Grenfell Tower as it is to burn an effigy of a politician/ human being , wave placards with vile hate filled rhetoric and abuse and display effigies of politicians in various forms of being murdered.

Might I add the latter being done in public, on such a huge scale and viewed widely in the media sends a subliminal message to the masses , including children , it is ' fair game ' , ' amusing ' to single politicians out. It is not!

Well we’ll never agree on this POGs. If I found out my next door neighbour had been to Lewes yesterday, it wouldn’t bother me but if he’d been at the GT bonfire, I’d never speak to him again.

On this forum I was told I was ‘a target’ because I criticised a politician, should anyone be ‘a target’ here or in the real world

I’m not sure a lot of “whataboutery “ is helpful. Saying “ nothing is done about x, so why are we complaining about y ?” Doesnt address the issue. Many people were up in arms about The Trump balloon, but are they now saying this incident is ok because nothing was done about that?. I’m sorry, it doesn’t mean celebrating the deaths by fire of 72 people by burning effigies of them burning to death is acceptable. It is qualitatively different.

Yes of course people should be targets in certain situations - why on Earth not? Not target in the sense of being killed obviously or physically attacked but targeted for criticism of views they hold or actions they have carried out/ are responsible for.

Anniebach I can't comment on the deaths of these prisoners as I don't know any details ie crimes/arrests.

Very true Maryeliza we will not agree.

I wouldn't want to be associated with any of the occurrences I mentioned of hate being displayed as fun or fair game. I would personally feel ashamed of aiding and abetting the fuelling of hatred and bigotry.

All that I know is that the police are brassed off with the rising crime and are expected to be in half a dozen places at once.

crystal nicely put. And anyway, as for that balloon, it was hardly hate filled was it? A bit later there was one of SK flown anyway - both a bit of hot air so to speak. Did anyone else love ‘Spitting Image’?