Bullying Remainers

Smile if I had made a false assumption about you I would have apologised. Perhaps you don't remember saying that I wouldn't accept a second vote? I asked you on what you based that assumption.

I have noticed on here that sometimes people make claims and even accusations but when they are disproved they don't apologise. When Anya was on here she and I sometimes disagreed but she was never unpleasant and we had reasoned debate. Neither of us disrespected the other's viewpoint. We certainly never made assumptions about each other.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about nonnie.

I posted yesterday that neither of us have anything to prove. You seem to be very upset about my assumption, which you perceive as arrogant, but have no problem with making assumptions of your own for eg. that you are left wondering if I have other opinions that have no foundation.

As we appear to be in agreement that we have nothing to prove, I suggest we leave the matter there.

Dominic Raab, he who resigned as Brexit Secretary last week, was on the BBC Andrew Marr programme today (18/11/28) and advised on why he had resigned over the brexit deal that he has had a hand in negotiating. When Andrew Marr pressed him on the present deal being rejected in Parliament may well lead to a "no deal exit" with Britain crashing out of the European Union, Dominic Raab really demonstrated his total ignorance in regard to Britain's cross-border trading with the European Union.

In the above, Dominic Raab glibly advised that should there be problems at the port of Dover; then trucks could be switched the ports of Dunkirk or even Amsterdam. In that, does he not realise that the road hauliers that continually go backwards and forwards from this country to the continent have contracts with the ferry and port companies which they could just not walk away from.

Also , it would be very probable that the shipping Lines would not just be able to switch their ships from operating from Dover and Calais to another port at very short notice. The port of Dunkirk most certainly would not be able to handle a sudden increase in the number of trucks and ships it handles however much the requirement may be, with Amsterdam being in much the same position especially as it is set up to handle containers rather than roll-on roll-off trucks.

It also seemed to escape Dominic Raab's perception that both of the above ports are in the European Union and therefore the same checks and delays are likely to occur to free movement there as much as they would at port of Dover.

I believe the above demonstrates how much this conservative government are out of touch with the realities of Britain's cross-border traffic with the European Union which have been built up over 40 years.

I found Dominic Raab's interview and comments on the Andrew Marr programme today, absolutely laughable

I think Private Eye compared JRM to the picture of John Cleese at The Ministry of Silly Walks if anyone remembers that.

JRM looks incredibly silly at the best of times. Hard to believe anyone takes him seriously.

crystal as I’ve said on another thread, I don’t think there will be the vote of no confidence and following on from this, I am now thinking she could win the vote on her deal. I expect it’s been a very interesting weekend in the constituencies. I hope MPs have been listening to all their constituents and not just the very small number of party members. I do wonder what the gang of 5 are playing at - and as for the ERG - but yes maybe it will all calm down and sense (ie self preservation) will prevail. JRM is looking sillier and sillier by the day

Yes crystal, I suspect and get the distinct feeling that you are right! Methinks they do protest too much! We shall see!!

Anyone else getting the sense that the tories are just going through a pantomime to given the impression they disagree with the deal, but will all quieten down in a few days, vote for the deal and leave May in post for the foreseeable future?

The point I was making david as that Sturgeon 'working in league' with JC can't be an option as such BUT there is no reason why NS shouldn't put forward firm views on the poor treatment of Scotland and back/encourage Westminster SNP MPs to cooperate with JC over the brexit fiasco. She has just declared on AM show that she/they are more than willing to talk to Labour.
Not quite sure what you were saying about DUP but many resent the fact that they hold undeserved balance of power.

Many also fail to accept (or prefer to ignore) that SNP is the 3rd largest party in HoC, before LibDem, Plaid, Greens, DUP!

So Smileless you concluded that I wouldn't accept a second vote based on absolutely nothing at all? That leaves me wondering if there are other opinions you have which have no foundation.

No, I have nothing to prove but, after years of being bullied, I will not sit back and ignore someone making false accusations about me. I now challenge if something is untrue and leave the accuser to defend themselves, or not as in this case.

Neither of us have to prove anything nonnie.

mcem. I rather think the SNP Westminster MPs might just be a tiny bit influenced by NS in her absence.
Interesting what you say about Tories and DUP versus SNP.

Smileless please tell me what you have observed that says you don't thin I would accept the result if Leave were to win a second referendum. You have to prove your accusation, I don't have to prove you were wrong.

My personal belief in why those voters put their X's to leave was a protest vote pure and simple as well as being ill-thought out. They're the ones who listened and believed the "lies of the euroskeptics xenophobes and the hidden Tory traitors who were hoodwinked into thinking they were British ".
Many remainers know about European values and the history we share with EU member countries. How many of us can just hop on a plane from the many airports that we have and just take off with relative ease ?
Doesn't everyone enjoy their holidays abroad without the need for visas into such countries ?
Did those who voted leave think of this ? I don't think so.
When I voted I'd done my homework and knew which way I was going to vote !

Argh! Don't people get it? The Brexit problem is unsolvable!! If it was that easy it would have been sorted months ago. Labour and SNP couldn't possibly improve on the deal. Absolute doomsday scenario for UK if that inept bunch gained any sort of power.

I've never known so much yapping among politicians as there has been over the years------and nothing done !. Reminds me of the old adage of Rome burning while Nero fiddled which is exactly what's happened constantly.
Or the other old saying,empty vessels etc etc.
Actions always spoke louder than words in my book.
BTW has Cameron moved back under the stone he crawled out of ? Where is he and his grovelling apologies for all this ?

I'll re-phrase negotiations with arguing Nonnie as that seems what our politicians do best.

My comments are also based on observation nonnie.

You don't have too of course, but as you appear to be upset at my arrogance in assuming that you wouldn't accept the result of a second referendum if it were also to leave, I'm wondering why you haven't stated that you would.

Ellan "leave or remain we'll still face 10/20 years of negotiatons." why would there be negotiations if we simply drop Brexit? D Tusk said we could and he didn't mention renegotiating. I think that may just be something Leavers use to scare us.

We,of the older generation have had our lives it's time for us to think of the futures of our GC and GGC.

Merlotgran leave or remain we'll still face 10/20 years of negotiatons.

Liverpool's leavers voted 41.8% while remainers were 58.2%.
Surprised ? No because the city has lived with immigrants for years due to it having a port which was familiar with the arrivals of foreigners coming to settle and find employment so people like this don't " frighten " us. Those living in the sticks and who are housed in the leafy suburbs of this country are the ones most likely to vote leave-----through ignorance of not knowing/realising who provides their fresh food on the table. Immigrant workers are vital to the country and it's neither their fault nor that of the EU that we have become swamped. The fault lies with the politicians ( useless individuals ) sitting behind their gated communities inviting all and sundry to make it look as though they are the benevolent party forgetting one thing------no checks on any of them for their eligibility to provide for themselves e.g housing,work,medical needs------the list goes on.
It is NOT the fault of the EU that we have s many immigrants !

We in the North West were the " poor relations " of this country up until the '90's when the EU stepped in after MT's demise from Parliament when she gave up on Liverpool and the Labour council made a pigs ear of everything. I shudder to think what would have happened if the city hadn't been salvaged and this is exactly what will happen to run-down towns/cities if we do away with the EU. Where will the money come from ??

Ignore immigration for the time being as the most important feature in this debacle is the economy of this country.

The reason we have austerity homelessness and poverty at present is the badly run finance department of this government----again,nothing to do with the EU.
With talk about cost being in the EU nobody has yet mentioned the billions going out in foreign aid. India for instance costs us millions---they don't need it ! Their economy is one of the fastest as at one time it overtook China so why are we still sending billions to a country which is sustainable ?

There will always be more questions than answers in a country such as ours where we'll never get things right.

I thought that was your theory david but as an MSP (Holyrood and Scottish Parliament) First Minister Sturgeon cannot form an alliance with JC in Westminster.
The leader of the SNP MPs in Westminster is Ian Blackford who could and well might co-operate with JC and others . If it hadn't been for May's wheeling and dealing with DUP then SNP, as the 3rd party in HoC, might well have held the balance of power!

For similar reasons, Ruth D can't be Tory leader/PM as she is not a Westminster MP.
(Besides she's currently coping with the vital job of looking after her infant son!)

I see your point merlot, but as a remainer I would be happier to accept the result if it was leave again if it was based on more facts and less emotion this time. I do think though that it will take a long long time to get over this, even if as I hope, the whole sorry thing gets cancelled. Many people who voted to leave for reasons unconnected to the EU ( poor local economy, poor housing etc) will still have the same problems and will still be disregarded by most politicians, and there is no getting away from the fact that Brexit has lifted several stones and some rather nasty racists have crawled out. Britain has become a far worse place since this vote and Cameron has got a lot to answer for.

merlot D Tusk said a couple of days ago that we could just stop the whole thing. I think he meant that we could go back to where we were before the referendum so there would be no need for more negotiations. What would we all moan about then there would be a vacuum!

So if we have another referendum and it goes in favour of Remain, will we slide effortlessly back to where we were pre 2015 or face months, maybe years of more negotiations?

If Leave wins again we will still face more of the current argy bargy so whatever we decide, the future looks like it's going to be full of argument, indecision and back stabbing - not to mention another general election and the last three years will have been a total waste of time.

Thanks a lot, David Cameron

Sturgeon. If there is a GE, Corbyn would need to gain 80 seats to have an absolute majority, that is unlikely, in addition the SNP will probably increase their MPs as well.

My perception is that Labour and the SNP are fairly close on idealogy, they could work together and solve the Brexit issues. Brexit aside it would be a real economic disaster but it is a scenario that may happen, who else would join Corbyn?, DUP? Lib Dems?.

Or am I the only one that has considered what a general election will mean.