"There will be NO renegotiation!" says Juncker for EU. Let us get out NOW!

The EU could not interfere with our national economy in any way whatsoever. Cameron had negotiated a permanent opt-out from the euro so it couldn't have done so in the future had we not had a moment of collective madness.

BUT the UK will be BOUND to bail out the Euro, to the tune of billions of taxpayers money, when it fails in the not too distant future. The economies of many member states are precarious. Look at Greece and now Italy.

No one ever seems to worry about the incredible COST to the UK of being one of it's biggest contributors.

Would any businessman with an iota of sense want to be tied to a deal where he continually has to bankroll failing partners, and be obliged to PAY billions every single year for the (membership) privilege of coughing up, relentlessly?

If liberal remainers think bankrolling (for the foreseeable future) small eastern european economies which contribute very little to the EU but receive a lot is good business I despair. If that doesn't sound like some sort of left wing social engineering experiment, I don't know what does.

The EU is about social engineering and creating a level playing field it seems to me, as well as doing away with borders and national identities. It is far, far more than just a trading bloc and people are beginning to understand just what is going on. Tell a French man he is the same as an Italian man or an English man or a Slovenian man. Tell a Scotsman he the same as an Irishman, Englishman or Welshman and I'd like to see the reaction.

National identity might have been triggered by the desperate flood of refugees and migrants to Europe but we saw the anger all over mainland Europe when the population and culture of countries is threatened. The no borders EU approach is a sure fire way to cause social unrest. It might be fine for elitist, educated and wealthy travellers but for those stuck where they are - and there are pitifully poor people all over Europe as well as in the UK -it's a threatening prospect, a frightening change and they have no come back. I abhor the far right as much as the hard left but it doesn't take an 'ologist' to see the recipe for unrest. It is happening all over Europe with the rise to power of nationalist political parties, fiercely proud of their homeland, traditions and culture - in much the same way the SNP are.. People are rising up against the blinkered political elite because they feel threatened and ignored.

And we have to pump billions into this chaotic mess and fund it whilst having much of our power taken from us.

No deal is the sensible way forward. Other EU member states will follow our lead before long.

We were fine without gas and electricity in the 18th century .....
We will never be totally independent - we will have to follow WTO rules for a start - another organisation we pay money to, and who "dictate rules", we already trade all around the world, the EU hasn't stopped that, made it easier in fact. Not sure what bit of the world we will now find easier to trade with. I've no idea how people feel life will be improved come Brexit with troops on standby , medicines already in short supply etc.

If you'd read my post properly Maisie, I made it more than clear that what I had written was copied, by heading the post:
What Europeans really think about Brexit
Feature by David Goodhart in the Spectator.

Which bit of this was not clear to you?
It is obvious to anyone that only the last few paragraphs are mine.

I see you have no comment about the article any way.

And as you so rightly mentioned. Yes we are trading with the World now and I believe we hav'nt had an Empire for many years.

What are you afraid of Maisie?

Why do you think that this country is not capable of running itself.

Why are you so happy to be dictated to by another power that has not our country's interest at heart.

Do you like being led and all decisions made by someone else?

Obviously so!

Buffy didn't write most of that post nn. It's a big chunk of copy & paste from the Spectator article. Most posters acknowledge quoted material by formatting or, at least, quotation marks.

We ruled our own country and traded with the Workd for hundreds of years before the EU.

We. Had. An. Empire.

It made some people very, very rich at the expense of millions of others. We do not have an empire to exploit now.

We trade with the world now. We never stopped trading with the world.

Buffybee totally agree ? great post.

“We are one of the richest countries in the world” - but how is that wealth distributed? Where is that wealth? Mostly in very expensive land and property owned by a tiny % of the population, many of whom are not British, finance companies and their shareholders ditto. Doesn’t mean much to homelessness , which has doubled in the last 4 years, all those” left behind” and struggling , didn’t May claim to be focussing on them? Meanwhile, we are p* sing billions on Brexit , we haven’t enough police or army, their numbers have been cut, people are loosing their jobs in the public sector due to cutbacks ( 2 from my local primary this term) so where will all these war like preparations will lead, Westminster is eating itself , with the weakest government and worse opposition. Makes many of us despair.

But otherwise, the separation doesn't seem natural
Taken to a logical conclusion you could say that about the countries of Europe - one land mass, separate countries.

And the Scandinavian countries.

What Europeans really think about Brexit
Feature by David Goodhart in the Spectator.

"The final word should go to my friend Jochen Buchsteiner of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.
Like most reasonable Germans, he is saddened by our exit and thinks it unnecessary given the 'semi-detached' status we already enjoyed. 'Brexit does matter and it will weaken Britain, it will weaken Germany and make it harder to resist an eventual transfer union most Germans don't want.

But, he says, there is also a fear stalking the corridors of power in Germany and elsewhere.

What if the U.K. flourish outside the EU?

The Swedish position I quoted told me that the editor of a top Swedish newspaper had said to her that if in five to ten years' time Britain is doing fine, Sweden will probably leave, too.
The EU will become the eurozone plus an outer ring of associated countries.

Maybe Britain is the canary in the mine, says Buchsteiner. "You have often been right in the past from Henry V111 to the decision to challenge Hitler.
Perhaps, once again, you are seeing the future more clearly."

This is why I think the EU are afraid of us leaving, plus the loss of our massive payments to them.

We're one of the richest countries in the World, we are World renowned for excellence.
We ruled our own country and traded with the Workd for hundreds of years before the EU.
We will do it again!

Are you not British, Fennel?

(not trying to be snarky; I'd just be very surprised that British people of our sort of age who lived through 'the Troubles' didn't know about the history of the island of Ireland)

"Can I ask: do you not think of NI and Eire as two separate countries ?"
Technically yes., But otherwise, the separation doesn't seem natural . If it wasn't for the religious differences.
I don't know enough about the history.

Fennel
Forget the word backstop Think of the document as an insurance policy. The eu keep repeating that it will never be used, so why do they insist on having one ?
Fennel
Can I ask: do you not think of NI and Eire as two separate countries ?

"Why is the Irish border made out to be such a big problem
History? Religion?"
Oldbatty I've asked that in the past as well. and that stupid phrase 'backstop'.
I had it explained once on here, but it still doesn't register.
Except it concerns the fact that southern Ireland Is independently a member of the EU.
And northern Ireland is not. NI is evidently part of the UK. Like Wales.

If, during the run up to the referendum, remain had argued that it would result in 3,500 troops being on standby to deal with any violence/complications etc even I would have labelled it 'project fear'. At what point will people actually look at what is happening to what was once a great country and decide that enough is enough.

MazieD
I believe the euro will fail, purely because of the amount of debt, and with that the face of Europe as we know it now.
I certainly think there's a global recession on the way.

Well, a DUP MP insists that it is a non-issue. So all those very worried NI people must be wrong

I can’t believe people are so *****as to think the British border ( not the Irish one) is of so little importance.

I know about the euro, petra.

We are not in the euro. We have a sovereign currency. The EU could not interfere with our national economy in any way whatsoever. Cameron had negotiated a permanent opt-out from the euro so it couldn't have done so in the future had we not had a moment of collective madness.

However, although we may pat ourselves on the back for never having joined the euro (and voting Leave) it makes very little difference to the way that our economy is being run because it is driven by the very same economic theory which informs the EU's dealings with the euro states. Which is causing untold misery and hardship for the UK citizens who are just about managing or living below the bread line. Leaving the EU won't do anything to improve things for them.

Forecasters say there's another global recession on its way... I'd worry more about that.

MazieD
This is from a newspaper which I believe is respected by many leavers.
www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/13/euro-growth-eurozone-joseph-stiglitz

MazieD
These are facts.

marketmonetarist.com/2015/07/14/the-euro-a-monetary-strangulation-mechanism/

Support for the EU is much stronger in mainland Europe - no one wants to emulate the UKs political and economic chaos
We’ve plenty of unelected officials right here in the UK, House of Lords anyone?.

The EU is doomed to failure. Why tie ourselves to a sinking ship.
There's massive unrest starting in many countries in the EU.
Dissatisfaction with how these unelected officials rule like Demi-gods.
Revolting men like Juncker feathering their own nests!
Looking down on the stupid hoi polloi proletariat
The tide is turning!
It was doomed to failure from the beginning anyway.

Splendid rant, Buffy

Now can you give us some facts?

Why are the EU fighting tooth and nail to keep us?

I don't think that they are, Buffy.

How do you think they are 'fighting to keep us'?

E,C,T.C? Any comments?

Earlier on today in this thread, isn't it, nellie?

Why is the Irish border made out to be such a big problem

History? Religion?

I like your style Buffybee