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"There will be NO renegotiation!" says Juncker for EU. Let us get out NOW!

(289 Posts)
Day6 Wed 12-Dec-18 14:05:39

So, the EU will tie us to them forever and tell us when we can leave, and which trade deals we broker with other countries are acceptable.

I really, really hope there is a well-developed plan B, because our dealing with the WTO has to be the best deal for the UK.

NO DEAL has to be the way forward.

I think we are seeing just how tied and powerless we will be if we allow Brussels to continue to pull our strings.

Day6 Wed 12-Dec-18 14:06:47

Oh and it will continue to cost us BILLIONS (to be tied to Brussels) every year.

Nicenanny3 Wed 12-Dec-18 14:36:11

Well if she wins the no confidence vote tonight which unfortunately looks likely unless she gets the backstop amended the DUP will vote against it so back to square one, hopefully leave on WTO terms that's what she keeps saying but I've got to the point where I don't believe one word she says, she's done so many uturns and told so many lies I'm sick of her full stop infact I hate her and I have never felt so strongly about any politician I'm fuming.

Buffybee Wed 12-Dec-18 15:10:32

What happened to No Deal is better than a bad deal?
And the "deal" (if you can call it that) absolutely stinks.
The EU and that drunkard Junket are rubbing their hands with glee.
I think, give them two fingers and get out now.
We might struggle with WTO for a few years but we will be rid of these leeches.

GrannyGravy13 Wed 12-Dec-18 15:13:50

Out with no deal, then watch the EU come and negotiate with us please.

Jane10 Wed 12-Dec-18 15:46:40

Turkeys hoping for Christmas you lot!

crystaltipps Wed 12-Dec-18 15:49:52

Why is there another Brexit thread.? Couldn’t they all be put into one. No deal IS a bad deal as far as the British economy is concerned, you’d only be calling for it if you don’t care about jobs, incomes, every aspect of society really.

Day6 Wed 12-Dec-18 15:57:32

We fall back on World Trade Organisation rules should the EU continue to be totally intractable regarding dealings with the UK.

In my opinion we should have been telling the EU from the start that they were not our only option.

This very sensible article about the alternative, the WTO, , from The Spectator. (Printed in full as it might not be available to all.

"Warnings by Remainers about the consequences of a ‘no deal’ Brexit are beginning to resemble a game of oneupmanship worthy of Monty Python’s Yorkshiremen. Not content with claims that the M20 to Dover will be gridlocked with lorries waiting to undergo customs checks and that the North Ireland peace protest will break down, Doug Gurr, Amazon’s chief in the UK, apparently told Dominic Raab at a recent meeting that there will be ‘civil unrest’ within a fortnight of Britain leaving the EU without a deal. Next, they will have us living 150 to a shoebox."

"Those who peddle this relentless doom-mongering fail to understand the protections which will remain in place for the UK under international law. "

"Far from ‘crashing out of the EU’, failing to secure a free trade deal with the EU simply means that the UK will trade with the EU on terms set out by the World Trade Organisation (WTO)."

"The pundit class tends to scoff at the WTO option. They dismiss it as a recipe for chaos. But that is to ignore the huge progress that this body has made in promoting global trade over the past two decades. The government should from the beginning have presented the WTO option as a viable counterpoint to the EU’s hardline, all-or-nothing stance."

"The WTO oversees a system of trade rules for its 164-member countries, which together account for no less than 98 per cent of all global trade. Under the WTO General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (the GATT), tariffs on most manufactured goods between the UK and the EU would stay quite low, averaging around 3 per cent."

"While EU leaders like to threaten us with hints that our exports would be unsellable in the EU, the fact is that non-tariff barriers such as arbitrary health and safety inspections and borders would be prohibited under the WTO’s Sanitary and Phyto-sanitary (SPS) and Technical Barriers to Trade (TBT) agreements. The UK intends to retain conformity with EU regulations following Brexit, at least for the time being, meaning that the existing low levels of health and safety risks to the public in UK products will not change in the days after Brexit. There would, as a result, be no grounds for the EU to exclude our goods from its markets."

"The WTO’s new Trade Facilitation Agreement obliges the EU to maintain borders which are as frictionless as possible, using modern technologies such as pre–arrival processing of documents and electronic payments. Discrimination against foreign products through all sorts of internal regulations is forbidden. These rules are enforced by a well-respected international tribunal which has a high rate of compliance and cannot be overruled by the European Court of Justice."

"While tariffs on some EU goods — agricultural goods and automobiles in particular — would be higher than 3 per cent, economic gains secured from an independent trade policy and a more pro-competitive environment should compensate UK consumers."

"The WTO’s coverage of services is incomplete and would not grant UK firms the level of EU market access they enjoy under the single market, but the UK is well placed to take a leading role in developing the new Trade in Services Agreement, due to resume over the next few years, as well as multilateral negotiations for services at the WTO. Roberto Azevedo, the director general of the WTO, announced that he is looking forward to having the UK back as an independent champion of free trade."

"Breaking free of the EU customs union will enable the UK to boost trade with other countries around the world, taking advantage of WTO rules which allow countries to offer preferential trading arrangements to nations with which they negotiate a Free Trade Agreement (FTA). In charge of its own trade policy, the UK should be able to roll over many of the EU’s 60-plus FTAs with third countries, some of which have already indicated that they intend to offer the UK terms as good as they did to the EU."

"Canada has even suggested that the UK may get a better deal than that which was offered to the EU under the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) two years ago. The UK Department of International Trade has already begun discussions with several countries with which the EU has failed to do trade deals, most notably the US. Since 90 per cent of world GDP growth in the coming decades is expected to be outside the EU, it makes sense that the UK looks beyond this region, which now accounts for less than half of its overall trade. The UK will no longer be required, as it is at the moment under EU rules, to impose tariffs on products which it does not produce, such as tropical fruit — reducing prices for consumers and giving us leverage when it comes to negotiating trade deals. The country will be in a strong position to do trade deals faster than the EU has managed because it will not be encumbered by a long-winded ratification process involving 27 member states."

petra Wed 12-Dec-18 15:59:18

I supported Teresa May all the way up until the Chequers summit. Then we were told that she had met Angela Merkel the night before where she discussed the deal before showing it to the cabinet. I knew then which way the wind was blowing.

Joelsnan Wed 12-Dec-18 16:11:46

There are no absolutes to leaving or remaining. The bubbling dissent throughout the working classes in the EU does not guarantee the utopian dream that many remainers think the EU is. The more financial concessions ceeded to the workers by the 'richer' EU members the less money available to the poorer countries who contribute little but receive much. This may in turn result in unrest within these countries as the golden eggs shrink.
Humanity is so unpredictable, however history does show that inevitably large empires do fail. In the case of EU nation states few will truly surrender their nationality and eventually the federal dream will falter and fracture with similar states forming their own smaller alliances.
If the EU was so confident in its continued status, why does it make leaving so difficult?

trisher Wed 12-Dec-18 16:15:32

Whatever the economic arguments the one thing that no-one can resolve is the issue of the Northern Ireland border. It is ridiculous that those who voted Leave refuse to even admit there is a problem. And I have yet to see a logical reason for not having a second vote. If the choice includes, remaining, accepting the deal now on offer, or leaving with no deal people would have a real choice and if Day6 thinks "No Deal" is OK she could vote for it. Doesn't seem unreasonable to ask that.

Nonnie Wed 12-Dec-18 16:16:36

I'm amazed this is a surprise to anyone. What did you expect? Cake and eat it comes to mind

Buffybee Wed 12-Dec-18 16:26:06

Well said Day6!

humptydumpty Wed 12-Dec-18 16:49:20

Completely agree trisher!

crystaltipps Wed 12-Dec-18 16:51:24

If we have no deal then we tear up all previous treaties we have including the Good Friday Agreement. This could lead to the inevitable, no not scaremongering but what a risk to take, we are talking about people’s lives here.
The WTO is an organisation that we pay money to and have to abide by its rules and regulations - remind you of anything? what was that about sovereignty? No one said the EU was utopia, it must evolve and change, but it’s always better to be inside the tent p*ssing out than the other way round.

Joelsnan Wed 12-Dec-18 17:15:38

but it’s always better to be inside the tent p*ssing out than the other way round
Not if the pxxxing on is going on inside the tent!

crystaltipps Wed 12-Dec-18 17:35:17

The P*ssing inside the tent has been mostly by us to be fair.

Day6 Thu 13-Dec-18 01:44:22

The United Kingdom has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995.

crystaltipps Thu 13-Dec-18 05:48:24

those who claim being members of WTO is enough need to look more carefully at that organisation and listen to the people that run it. They say it’s not designed to be relied on by sole nations and it makes things much more complicated and expensive. We wouldn’t therefore have the promised wonderful freedoms for tariff free trade that we enjoy now as EU members. Trade treaties are not written on the back of fag packets in an afternoon , despite what the likes of Dim Davies say. If we want to strike up trade around the world with countries such as Mauritania and Albania gawd help us. Oh but I forgot JRM has promised cheaper footwear. I wonder where he gets his shoes, I don’t expect it’s Shoezone.

Davidhs Thu 13-Dec-18 07:20:00

Leadership challenge was a surprise, I predicted there would be no majority for a change and there wasn't. No credible replacement wanted the job
So Carry on Theresa, it would be a comedy if it wasn't serious.

Parliament will reject the deal OR maybe JC will propose a second referendum before the vote. There is some logic to doing that, a second referendum would break the obvious deadlock, TM would oppose that but MPs would prevail.

eazybee Thu 13-Dec-18 07:58:37

Two things struck me after The Vote last night.
One) After surviving the vote of no confidence the Prime Minister immediately flies back to Brussels in her long-playing role of supplicant, instead of attempting to restore unity within her party and with her MPs.
Two) I am developing an irrational hatred for the group of people who are constantly waving the EU flag, representing a group of foreign nations, in front of the British Houses of Parliament, and attempt to disrupt any interview with their inane chanting and flag waving.

paddyann Thu 13-Dec-18 08:15:48

WellEazybee I've always been happy to be European have 62% of my fellow Scots .To us its not a flag of foreign nationals its a flag that represents a UNITED europe where we would be on exactly the same footing as every other know just like the UK is.Brexit is taking away our rights and frankly I dont believe some of the absurd comments from leavers on here .They must live in a parallel universe .We need to revoke article 50...we can ,we just need someone brave enough to do it !

newnanny Thu 13-Dec-18 10:29:25

We'll said Day 6. I have been arguing similar but many entrenched with EU dogma.

varian Thu 13-Dec-18 10:37:35

You are right paddyann. The EU flag is our flag. The majority of the population who never voted for brexit have been ignored by this government and most of the media and were it not for folk like the demonstrators who hold up pro-EU posters and flags behind the interviewers from the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation, you could continue to ignore us.

You are also right eazybee when you describe your hatred of these folk as irrational.

Jane10 Thu 13-Dec-18 10:43:26

I'm waving my virtual EU flag as I read these threads!