Anna Soubry

max the law on this is quite clear. Referenda in the UK are preconsultative or advisory. DC took it upon himself to say the Government would act upon the result but this was not a legal position. In Ireland it is enshrined in law that the results of referenda are legally binding eg the recent abortion referendum which has now been passed into law

God knows I have taken to task gransnet posters who have chosen to make their point against other gransnet posters by using the words such as Brexshitters/Road Kill /Vermin /Natzis/Racists /Xenophobic.

God might know, POGS but I don't think many of the regular posters on Brexit themes would actually confirm this image you have of yourself as the forum politeness monitor.

I've always been quite impressed at the level of civility we've managed over the past 2 years. Compared to Mumsnet and twitter...

How did this tag "advisory" become attached to the referendum? It was an INSTRUCTION by the majority of the electorate. Not advice or an invitation to a bunch of pampered politicians to waste billions wafflig for over two years. For those that do not understand what majority means it is the result of democracy....something Remoaners like Anna Soubry trot out with demented swivel-eyes to express their anger at being beaten at the ballot box. Yes, DEMOCRACY whether you like it or not. If you do not accept that democracy is what makes the UK a good place to live you can always move to China or Russia. (Or Spain, thinking of Catalonia and how their democtacy was trampled underfoot by the thugs in Madrid.)

Well said POGS

And yet again. Great post POGS. thank you.

For heavens sake abuse, hatred and vile rhetoric does NOT belong to the left nor right of politics.

End of.

In the case of Anna Soubry and the harassment she obviously had to deal with it would be a nonsense to not assume they were probably far right/or Brexiters.

But it cannot be so easily said as some posters are saying the right wing are worse than the left wing.

God knows I have taken to task gransnet posters who have chosen to make their point against other gransnet posters by using the words such as Brexshitters/Road Kill /Vermin /Natzis/Racists /Xenophobic.

Some of the links posters put up to known sites that are known for their partisan views and jokes about MP's that have crossed the line of decency have been sadly rife over the past 2/3 years on Gransnet, albeit things have settled down a tad of late.

Indeed whilst I abhor the treatment Anna Soubry received I am aware of some of the things she has said both inside and outside of Parliament that has crossed a line so I think MP's should take a hard look at themselves too.

It should make no difference because of who is on the receiving end of threatening behaviour / abuse ! Whether it be say Farage /Jim Murphy/ Soubry/Rees-Mogg / Ruth Smeeth/Luciana Berger/John Mann or any other politician past or present who has found his/herself to have been on the receiving end of threatening behaviour.

There is nothing wrong in debating facts or making your view known but ' Abuse and Hatred ' are not 'fair play' and politicians deserve better , even from their own parties.

Yes, the truth is a rare commodity!

Thank you posting the truth POGS

Jacee5 Tue 08-Jan-19 12:16:01

"Anniebach No female MPs needed protection at the Labour party conference.

The police put out a statement confirming that.
There was a photograph shown that happened to have the MP who was trying to suggest this in the vicinity of a policeman but he was not there to protect her and it is shameful of her that she did not correct the false impression.
Luckily though, as I have said, the Police did correct it for those who wanted to know the actual facts.

Jaycee5 Tue 08-Jan-19 12:27:48

"Here is a link which contains the statement from Merseyside police. Of course the main stream media which had already published the propoganda, did not correct it.
zelo-street.blogspot.com/2018/09/luciana-berger-and-police-protection.html"
----
Jaycee I am not surprised you are promoting the likes of Zelo Street and Squawkbox to make your point.

There were many photographic publications and written reports that show Luciana Berger did indeed have Merseyside Police Officers with her albeit at times only one officer.

What Merseyside Police did not provide was 'armed' police protection.

Here is just one other link and I purposely chose a left wing paper.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jewish-mp-luciana-berger-flanked-13298354

' Jewish MP Luciana Berger flanked by police protection at Labour conference after months of antisemitic threats'.

'Merseyside Police confirmed that the officers with Ms Berger are not armed.'

In a statement they said: "Merseyside Police has not provided Wavertree MP Luciana Berger with armed protection officers.

"The force has a highly visible policing operation in place for the duration of the conference.

"We are continually assessing risk and as a result we have given some additional support to a number of people attending the conference."

I believe that the threat of a "no deal" Brexit has receded somewhat in the last two day, and perhaps the prospect of Brexit not actually taking place at all has increased.

In the above, it has also been good to witness that the power of no more than forty hardline Tory Brextiers that have held this government to ransom for the last two years and in that the whole of parliament does now seem to have been broken.

It has also been good to see that the thugs that now lead the UKIP campaign have now been outed, but we have still to hear condemnation of their actions from the main Tory Brexit leaders.

There is still a way to go in securing the future of many thousands of well-paid jobs in manufacturing, the higher service industries and many professions in the face of the continuing Brexit uncertainties. However, I feel that parliament has taken a number of steps in the right direction in the last two days to the credit of many MPs in the face of threats to their personal safety.

Good point Fennel.
Varian we do seem to have gone off your topic! Apologies.
Are you cross or does morphing into another topic just become acceptable?
I’m relatively new to GN and not sure how posters feel about it when this happens!
What do you think .... or does that start another thread haha!

The biggest anomaly in the 2017 GE was between UKIP and the SNP.
SNP 997,508 votes 35 seats
UKIP 557,390 votes 0 seats.
Not that I'm a UKIP fan, but it does seem inequitable.

Both main party's went to the country in the GE, on the promise of delivering brexit.

And a lot of Remainers, jabberwock held their noses and voted Labour on the strength of their social plans. And, I suspect, because they felt that Labour might make a better fist of negotiating Brexit than May's bull in a china shop approach.

The LibDems were not wiped out in 2017 but increased their representation by 50%. Everyone knows that under the abominable FPTP system it is virtually impossible for any party other than Tory or Labour to gain a majority. The Tories lost so much support that they have to rely on the DUP.

The Labour Party leadership let down their ,membership and their voters by saying they would support brexit. Most LP supporters (currently more than 70%) want to cancel brexit.

Theresa May has kow-towed to the ultra-brexit brigade in her party and refused to listen to anyone else, setting out ridiculous "red lines" which were logically incompatible. That is why we are in this mess.

It is high time that the sane Remainers and the bregretters, who are in the majority, were heard.

Oops! Sorry Labaik I pressed ‘post’ too soon!
Here it is:

English voters were going to win or lose the 2016 referendum.
They would likely be asked to vote to leave based on a hot-blooded appeal to raw nationhood. The best antidote to that was a cold-blooded appeal to economic interest.
My colleagues on Cameron’s political team were certainly sympathetic – many of them were also angry about Leave’s approach to the Irish question – but the truth was that not enough target voters cared enough to make it a central campaign issue.
And there wasn’t enough time to make them care.

- and so, here we are. Dispiriting isn’t it?

varian you posted: These 100 strong mobs of brexit thugs are violent dangerous ignorant louts

This was written about the silly old man Ian Bone a few years ago (2010):

in 1983 Ian Bone founded Class War, an “extremely violent anarchist paper.” Bone was quite clear in that he aimed to put “violence back at the top of the anarchist agenda.

Nothing in the leaflet Labaik and this - taken from an article in The Irish Times from Matt O’Toole who was chief press officer for Europe and economic affairs in the British prime minister’s office from September 2015 to August 2017.
- explains why not:

Well said POGS

Both main party's went to the country in the GE, on the promise of delivering brexit. Was this only advisory too?!!! was this yet another vote catching lie?!!
The only remain party, the libdems were as good as wiped out!
How can any of us believe one thing a politician says, referendum, G.E manifesto, whatever?!!

they are not fair game but he is
I bet she didn't think that statement was going to come back and bite her.

Thanks for that Urmston

You can quote from that leaflet all you like, Urmstongran but the fact remains that. like the referendum, it was non-binding. The only body which had the right to make such a 'promise' was Parliament and they had been assured that the referendum was only advisory. Cameron was acting beyond his constitutional powers in making the 'promise'. But by the time he did so it was too late for Parliament to alter it.

From the HOC library report on the EU referendum bill:

This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented,

Report which contains this can be downloaded from here: researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7212

Why do so many MPs and reporters say it was only advisory, just confuses us all.

They say it because that's what it was.
In fact, when the bill was being debated it was proposed that an amendment should be made requiring a super-majority but the Commons were assured that it wasn't necessary because the referendum was only advisory. I can find the Hansard entry or the clip of David Liddington saying this if you like...

So while Leavers, understandably, cling to Cameron's 'promise', Remainers are, equally understandably, not only horrified that Cameron made that unconstitutional promise but also that the result of a referendum in which some Leave campaigns broke electoral law is being implemented. It makes a mockery of democracy to allow one side to 'win' by illegal actions.

But Bone managed to have five children whom he largely ignored and left to his wife to bring up.
His daughter, Josephine, said:
he is an unprincipled rabble-rouser who just loves a fight.

JRM was insuted by one silly old man
I'm sorry, varian, but Ian Bone is not a silly old man - he is an anarchist, and bone-idle - educated to degree level but resolved never to work, only to live off the state which he despises.
In 2006, he told The Guardian: "I never thought about having a job or a career. Jobs and material possessions have never loomed large in my life.

Without having access to the government pro remain leaflet, can anyone tell me what was said in it regarding Ireland?

Varian

On this thread you posted:-

varian Tue 08-Jan-19 10:26:30

" There is absolutely no comparison between the behaviour of the pro and anti brexit supporters. As far as I know JRM was insuted by one silly old man when he paraded his children for the media. These 100 strong mobs of brexit thugs are violent dangerous ignorant louts, whose behaviour is encouraged by the right wing tabloids with their talk of "treachery" and "bertrayal".
---

You are mistaken as I posted on one of the copious threads
about Rees-Mogg :--

" Vile abusive people are simply that vile abusive people.

Jacob Rees-Mogg and other Conservative MP's have become as much of a target to suffer hate crime and abuse as some of the Labour MP's and Councillors.

This is just the latest incident that the Rees-Mogg family have been subjected to by ironically those who called him ' scum '.

This happened to the family not long ago.:-

" Vandals have spray painted the words "posh scum" on the home of Jacob Rees-Mogg and left a purple sex toy on his car.

The North East Somerset MP is thought to have been on holiday with his family when the vandals attacked his house in West Harptree, Somerset.

The words "posh scum" and "shut up and die" were sprayed across his windows and car during the attack on Wednesday night (August 1).

Condoms were also left near the grounds of the Tory MP’s house.

An anarchy symbol was left on his Range-Rover, together with a purple dildo."
----

Varian one of your posts on that thread duscussing the abuse Rees-Mogg was receiving was as follows:-

varian Wed 12-Sep-18 20:23:27

" They are not fair game but he is. "
-—-—---------

Nobody is ' FAIR GAME' whether they are left/right of politics.

Nobody is 'FAIR Game' because they believe in Remain or Leave.

Whether it is Anna Soubry, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Luciana Berger, Nick Boles, Dianne Abbott it is not acceptable for ANY MP to be harassed or subject to the vile abuse by vile people from both the left and right of politics.

The threads we have now had discussing the abuse, vicious rhetoric, threatening behaviour from death threats to plackards showing politicians with a ' noose' around their neck, burning bonfire effigies of our politicians should not depend on our politics nor our view on Brexit to know that VILE PEOPLE ARE JUST THAT VILE People.

I don't care who I might upset when I say sadly even on Gransnet the rhetoric and ease with which some posters so easily overstep the line of decency to make their point is also a concern and leads to the charge of hypocrisy at best on so many occasions.