Venezuela. / Chavez / Moduro

So an economic system rather than a political system.

Definition of socialism: workers' democratic self-management of the means of production.

The majority of the means of production in Venezuela are in private hands. Also, as far as I know, the nationalised industries (eg oil) are not self-managed by their, or any other, workers.

It depends on the definition of socialism.

Oh dear! I did think I had proved Venezuela wasn't a socialist country - other people can say what they like but the facts are against them.

The classic American credo is "free trade and everyone has opportunity". The tragic irony is that the US attitude to Latin America has been to suppress movements for equality.

With their enormous economic might they dish out embargos onto any nation whose government they disapprove of. Witness: Cuba, Libya, Iran, Sudan, Syria, and now Venezuela. US governments have been involved in supporting anti-government movements and even assassinations in Latin America.

According to Wikipedia: "the U.S. government secretly supported military coups that overthrew democratically elected governments in Syria in 1949, Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954, the Congo Crisis of 1960, Brazil in 1964 and Chile in 1973". And here we probably go again with Venezuela.

As to the question: is there any true socialist country, I would answer - not yet. But that doesn't mean to say it's impossible. Most revolutions started in countries which were very underdeveloped and several - USSR, Cuba, China - ensured much more egalitarian societies with no-one now starving, illiterate or without access to medical treatment.

But power has always been top down with the attendant concentration into a few hands, often corrupt and disorganised. In more developed countries we would expect to see the masses demanding democratic involvement, and that should be a part of any progressive party's policies.

By the waay it is interesting that it takes considerable research on-line to find the real details and information about these sanctions. One might almost think the US was trying to hide them.

POGS the oficial and publicised sanctions were against individuals the actual sanctions were much wider and had terrible effects venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14111
Do you really imagine the UN would consider that individual sanctions had been an abuse of human rights? Or that the UN is making up the real sanctions?

trisher

I will try again to get an answer.

The sanctions prior to the Jan 2019 sanctions were against 'individuals such as Moduros wife and generals.

Can you tell me when the USA had a Sanction against Venezuela where no oil was exported from Venezuela to the USA.?

Am I correct when I say the mismanagement/supposed corruption by those in charge of the Nationalised PDVSA has caused Venezuela, which has the world's largest reserve of oil, to start ' Importing' oil?

Granny Pauline

"Venezuela is NOT a socialist country though it suits all sorts of people and media folk to say so!"

It suited Corbyn/McDonnell/Williams/Livingstone et al until Moduro took it further into corruption and Dictatorship.
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" These countries face a right-wing backlash (with a bit of help from the US which has a disgraceful record of intervening in Latin American politics, as their support of the bloody coup against the democratically elected Allende government shows)."

You mean right wing countries such as those Latin American countries in the LIMA Group Canada, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Guyana, Honduras, Panama, Paraguay, Peru and Saint Lucia, Mexico.

Who knew they were not Socialist Countries . Mexico is the only country to side with Moduro is it not?
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" So there's two alternatives: carry on under capitalism - poverty and inequality. Or carry through a socialist revolution, to use the country's productive capacity to start to produce and distribute food, medicines, education etc etc."

It is NOT Capitalism that has caused poverty, inequality, reduced production of food, oil, created shortages of food, medicines and caused teachers to receive virtually no pay. It is the CORRUPT DICTATORSHIP of MODURO hiding under the banner of SOCIALISM.
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Please answer one question-

WHERE IN THE WORLD IS A COUNTRY THAT HAS YOUR OPINION OF WHAT IS 'TRUE SOCIALISM' ?

I don't think it is the same for all the ex-Yugoslav republics, Croatia and Slovenia being the exception but with a high rate of unemployment.

No idea why Jalima1108 my friend describes them as her "old aunties" which I think is probably her grandmother's generation -she is nearly 30. Her famly are very political.

A friend from Croatia says that many of her older relatives mourn the passing of socialism because "everybody had a home and a job and we didn't have people sleeping on the streets
I am surprised to hear you say that trisher
We have Croatian relatives and I've never heard any of them voice that opinion.

They have complained that jobs have disappeared since they joined the EU, though, which I found surprising.

Who is advocating complete capitalism? Nobody on this thread that I have noticed.

I find the power you give to the US ridiculous
You fail then to understand the power of the petro- dollar then.
One reflection on socialism. A friend from Croatia says that many of her older relatives mourn the passing of socialism because "everybody had a home and a job and we didn't have people sleeping on the streets". Those who advocate complete capitalism should realise the policies of the US and those of this government result in things like this. Then should reflect and wonder if having the choice between 6 different sorts of toaster or slow cooker is really worth the price. Although as they aren't the ones paying it, perhaps it is.

Oh, come on Grandmapauline, Lula's government did some good but in the end Lula turned out to be a crook feathering his own nest , just like all the others - and he was voted out and Brazil is now governed by an extreme right winger. Are you insulting the many millions of Brazilians who vote in elections by saying they are all the dupes of the USA, or does the CIA wander round giving everyone a $10 to vote the way they want. Get real.

You also fail to understand the role of an MP. They are representatives of their constituents not delegates, having to vote on every vote exactly as their constituents and party to tell them (what happens if party and constituents disagree) and we do have opportunities to recall them. It is called an election.

If every MP always has to vote as his party tells him, what is the point of having an MP? All you need is a junta to make decisions among themselves.

The greatness of the British Democratic system is that our MPs are representatives not delegates. I would also say that any recommendations for tighter control of MPs comes very rich from a party whose leader opposed his party whip, how many times, 400 plus?

I find the power you give to the US ridiculous, I do not deny that they have interfered in South American politics and in the past have changed government. But now their influence is much less effective and generally circumvented, especially as S American countries become more democratic and wealthier. The examples you give of the overthrow of Allende happened nearly 50 years ago (Dresden over 70). You really ought to be referring to more recent events than that. How about the Russian attempts to influence the American Presidential elections?

Russia and China are supporting Madura

Venezuela is NOT a socialist country though it suits all sorts of people and media folk to say so!
What is its appeal to Corbyn then?

Venezuela is NOT a socialist country though it suits all sorts of people and media folk to say so!

When Chavez came to power the population were energised and expected huge changes away from corruption and inequality. He began the process of redistribution of wealth and of nationalisation but he never finished it, so only 30% of the economy is currently under state control.

Maduro hitched himself to the bandwagon but delivered only more corruption and inequality - precisely those things that socialism sets out to eradicate.

In Brazil, too, Lula's presidency gave hope to the poor and downtrodden masses only to be betrayed by class conciliation (whereby supposedly everyone would win, billionaires and the poor) and conciliation between political forces.

These countries face a right-wing backlash (with a bit of help from the US which has a disgraceful record of intervening in Latin American politics, as their support of the bloody coup against the democratically elected Allende government shows).

So there's two alternatives: carry on under capitalism - poverty and inequality. Or carry through a socialist revolution, to use the country's productive capacity to start to produce and distribute food, medicines, education etc etc.

But - how to ensure it doesn't go the route of dishonesty, corruption, bribery and betrayal? f there was a socialist government there, or here, there must be democratic protection: democratic proportional representation with MPs on the average wage (audited expenses allowed but no more duck houses!). MPs should be subject to the right of recall by their community or Party if they are no longer representing their interests.

This is the task for the peoples of these countries. Even if there was any government which was squeaky clean, they should not be intervening to depose elected representatives.

trisher

As you are repeating on the thread the Human Rights Council Special Rapporteur, Alfred de Zayas words I will take the opportunity to do likewise by repeating another Human Rights post concerning Venezuela.

www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/venezuela

Extract

Under the leadership of President Hugo Chávez and now President Nicolás Maduro, the accumulation of power in the executive branch and erosion of human rights guarantees have enabled the government to intimidate, persecute, and even criminally prosecute its critics.

Severe shortages of medicines, medical supplies, and food have intensified since 2014, and weak government responses have undermined Venezuelans’ rights to health and food. Protesters have been arbitrarily detained and subject to abuse by security forces.

Police and military raids in low-income and immigrant communities have led to widespread allegations of abuse.

Other persistent concerns include poor prison conditions, impunity for human rights violations, and continuous harassment by government officials of human rights defenders and independent media outlets.

The Venezuelan government has targeted critics of its ineffective efforts to alleviate severe shortages of essential medicines and food while the crisis persists.."

It is worth reading the ' atrocities ' carried out by the regime in Venezuala under the headings :-

Prosecution of Political Opponents
Crackdown on Protest Activity
Operation Peoples’ Liberation
Humanitarian Crisis
Judicial Independence
Freedom of Expression
Human Rights Defenders
Political Discrimination
Prison Conditions

It will always be the case some who have feted the likes of Castro/Chavez and Moduro, those who have praised them and their Socialist Governments will continue to do so. They will apportion blame for all the woes of Venezuela onto other individuals, nations and organizations but at the end of the day Moduro is the one to take the blame for HIS actions.

trisher

The sanctions prior to the Jan 2019 sanctions were against 'individuals such as Moduros wife and generals.

Can you tell me when the USA had a Sanction against Venezuela where no oil was exported from Venezuela to the USA.?

Am I correct when I say the mismanagement/supposed corruption by those in charge of the Nationalised PDVSA has caused Venezuela, which has the world's largest reserve of oil, to start ' Importing' oil?

But the sanctions were not so draconian that Chavez and his satraps couldn't export billions of dollars that could have been betters pent on the country's people. And where did all that money come from - from a few olive trees in their back gardens or by their success in exporting millions of barrels of oil, sanctions or no sanctions.

M0nica the oil sanctions are the latest in a long line of sanctions. As you can't be bothered to read the link I gave I cut and paste this
United Nations Human Rights Council Special Rapporteur, Alfred de Zayas, recommended, just a few days ago, that the International Criminal Court investigate economic sanctions against Venezuela as a possible crime against humanity perpetrated by America.

Over the past five years, American sanctions have cut Venezuela off from most financial markets, which have caused local oil production to plummet. Consequently, Venezuela has experienced the largest decline in living standards of any country in recorded Latin American history.

Prior to American sanctions, socialism in Venezuela had reduced inequality and poverty whilst pensions expanded. During the same time period in America, it has been the absolute reverse. President Chavez funnelled Venezuela’s oil revenues into social spending such as free+6 healthcare, education, subsidized food networks, and housing construction.
This is a UN investigation not something that is undertaken lightly.
As for the elections I don't know. Arguably there may be another socialist candidate in the offing and the US wouldn't want to see that would they. It does surprise me that people are so willing to dismiss the actions of a country which has a vested interest in seeing Venezuela fail.

The American oil sanctions started about 10 days ago. All they had one before that was freeze the ruler's assets over seas.

Of course Chavez and his family could have acquires that $5.5 bn overseas with the intention of buying food and supplies for their benighted citizens, but as the average Venezuelan, lost 7kgs last year, or was it 11? and Maduro's BMI is in at least the obese sector, I do not think that likely.

Just think how that 5.5bn spent properly would have aided the inhabitants, food, clothing, medicines, plus of course the 80 million the Chinese lent them

why are the foreign states becoming so concerned at this late date when Maduro's presidency has less than three months to go?

Trisher, do you really think he will go, hold open and free elections and let his opponents take over and reveal all the 'socialist' leaders have got up to during their rule.

What will happen is that either he will fix the election so he can stay or he will fix it to make sure his chosen maxi-me gets in.

It will be like the replacement of Mugabwe with Emmerson Mnangagwa, just more of the same.

Firstly I am not"taken in" by the dictators and fully acknowledge that Chavez and Maduro got it completely wrong. But I also know that there is a concerted effort in the US to manipulate and influence the government of other countries when they feel that that government is not sympathetic to US interests. In the 1970s the US tried war to control such governments and experienced a massive failure. They now use other methods. Their sanctions combined with what is known as the "Dutch Disease" (a state dependent on one source of income) and a government that reacted to unrest by beoming increasingly authoritarian are the causes of this terrible crisis. One might be inclined to ask why are the foreign states becoming so concerned at this late date when Maduro's presidency has less than three months to go?
But it's much easier to blame socialism and a dead president than look any deeper into the problem.

The first sentence says it all, that is simply not true, linking back to the Dresden comments it was Germany that caused 60M deaths in WW2 the US was neutral until Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima would not have happened.

When the oil industry was nationalized in Venezuela surprise surprise nobody anywhere wanted to invest in it. It’s just not good policy to put money into a country that is going to steal it, and give it as bribes to corrupt officials and the military. The $6 billion said to be withheld is not going to solve the problem that is probably much less than is paid in bribes to support Maduro.

The problem is Maduro and his totalitarian politics, change that, repatriate all the cash that’s been hidden abroad by cronies and investment will return. Venezuela could and should be a wealthy country if it was governed properly.

Perhaps they were growing olive trees in their gardens and selling the oil from that in order to build up these fortunes.
M0nica

Amazing, isn't it, how so many are taken in by these dictators worldwide who are quietly building up massive overseas fortunes whilst their people starve.