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Venezuela. / Chavez / Moduro

(223 Posts)
POGS Wed 23-Jan-19 22:34:33

We have had many threads that have discussed the plight of Venezuela and tonight things are taking a turn it would appear in that forsaken country.

There was an interesting BBC programme ' REVOLUTION IN THE RUINS: THE HUGO CHAVEZ STORY ' shown 16th Jan 2019. I recommend viewing it for those interested in the politics of then and it's resonance with the politics of today.

It covered the rise / Socialist Revolution of both Chavez and Moduro and the subsequent impoverishment of the Venezuelan people.

It followed the Economy, Nationalisation , Shut down of the press, Total Compliance , Loyalty or Prison, Government Brutality, finally Dictatorship.

Yes it did cover the good side of their nature and helping the population but it followed a time line of why and how through Economic Mismanagement, Continued Corruption, Printing Money, Borrowing Money , led to a crime wave that worsened under Moduro.

We all know, although some do not accept , the Venezuelan people are starving, Inflation runs in figures of obscenity, mass migration in the millions, shelves bare of supplies even of toilet paper , medicines and health care destroyed.

There were two people interviewed in the BBC programme and what they said chimed with me thinking of the politicians who have declared we ' Could learn from Venezuala' and we know who they are.

One said on the subject of ' Cult and Personality ' , being 'Seduced and Controlled ' :-

" Whilst we had the positive side we also had the slippery side to authoritarianism "
----

The other said :-

" You cannot just vote for the shiny new thing and the promises of ' Romantic Revolutions ' you have to vote for the boring politician that has stable ideas to move people over time '.

Will Moduro the dictator still be in power ? Events are showing today this ' just might ' prove too much for even him but he no doubt he will survive. After all brutality and oppression has become the way to control the people in his Socialist Venezuala.

Anniebach Wed 23-Jan-19 22:47:38

And promises of Romantic Revolution brought in many young voters to the Labour Party

Namsnanny Wed 23-Jan-19 22:59:04

That's what shiny new politicians are for......to dazzle the public until they cant see the wood for the trees!

Or re branded old ones for that matter!

MaizieD Wed 23-Jan-19 23:12:25

Funny thing, that, Annie because I was just thinking that promises of Romantic Revolution caused a great many people to vote to leave the EU. hmm

Thinking about starting a thread on this but here's Sir Ivan Rogers' latest lecture about the situation we're in now

www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/sites/european-institute/files/sir_ivan_rogers_lecture_ucl_22012019.pdf

No need to discuss it here and derail POGS thread but people might be interested to read it.

As for Venezuela, from what I've read it looks as though corruption and not having a really sovereign currency are a huge part of its problems.

dbDB77 Wed 23-Jan-19 23:51:01

Apparently the leader of the opposition has declared himself president - there are thousands out protesting on the streets but Maduro has the army - it will end in bloodshed - how dreadful for the people of Venezuela.

POGS Wed 23-Jan-19 23:52:14

Maize d

Your link does not work but I would start a thread if it is interesting . If it is totally u related to Venezuala' your point might be lost or missed interested in it's subject.

When you say :-

" As for Venezuela, from what I've read it looks as though corruption and not having a really sovereign currency are a huge part of its problems."

I don't understand what you mean?

Venezuala' has a ' Sovereign Currency ' It was the ' Bolivar ' and now it is the ' Bolivar Soberanos ' since 2018.

' Venezuela's economy has collapsed. This is the result of years of socialism, incompetence, and corruption, among other things. An important element that mirrors the economy's collapse is Venezuela's currency, the bolivar. It is not trustworthy. Venezuela's exchange rate regime provides no discipline. It only produces instability, poverty, and the world’s highest inflation rate for 2018. Indeed, Venezuela’s annual inflation rate at the end of 2018 was 80,000%.'

POGS Thu 24-Jan-19 00:01:34

dbDB77

" it will end in bloodshed - how dreadful for the people of Venezuela."

The people of Venezuala' have been there before.

www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/venezuela

" In Venezuela today, no independent government institutions remain to act as a check on executive power. The Venezuelan government—under Maduro and previously under Chávez—has stacked the courts with judges who make no pretense of independence.

The government has been repressing dissent through often-violent crackdowns on street protests, jailing opponents, and prosecuting civilians in military courts. It has also stripped power from the opposition-led legislature.
Due to severe shortages of medicines, medical supplies, and food, many Venezuelans cannot adequately feed their families or access the most basic healthcare. In response to the human rights and humanitarian crisis, hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans are fleeing the country.

Other persistent concerns include poor prison conditions, impunity for human rights violations, and harassment by government officials of human rights defenders and independent media outlets."

"Venezuelan security forces, together with armed pro-government groups called “colectivos,” have violently attacked anti-government protests—some of them attended by tens of thousands of Venezuelans—between April and July 2017. Security force personnel have shot demonstrators at point-blank range with riot-control munitions, run over demonstrators with an armored vehicle, brutally beaten people who offered no resistance, and staged violent raids on apartment buildings."

Watch the BBC programme mentioned in the OP and you will see what I mean.

And even when this was going on Politicians in this country then and now still put Chavez and Moduro on pedestals because of the brotherhood of ' Socialism '

Anniebach Thu 24-Jan-19 10:52:34

One only has to hear Corbyn discussing Venezuela and talking to Moduro on uTube

POGS Fri 25-Jan-19 16:50:19

"Venezuela: At least 20 dead, situation could ‘rapidly spiral out of control’ warns UN rights chief"

news.un.org/en/story/2019/01/1031272

' Could ' The United Nations will get nowhere as there will be the usual shambles of China, Russia et al voting in a totally different direction to the majority no doubt as they are backing Moduro .

I dare not think who this country would be aligning with in the United Nations if Corbyn/ Mc Donnell were to become the UK Government given their history with the likes of Chavez and Moduro .

MaizieD Fri 25-Jan-19 17:40:50

Sorry, POGS, I wasn't thinking quite straight. Of course Venezuela has a sovereign currency, but they are also using the dollar wherever possible because the dollar is believed in as a currency and the bolivar isn't.

While not particularly defending the current regime I note that few reports on Venezuela mention the fact that a number of countries, led by the USA have been exercising economic sanctions on them for many years. Punitive sanctions, like those on Cuba, in order to effect regime change. Not the first time that the US has worked to overthrow a left wing government in South America. IMO it is none of the US's business how a country wishes to be governed but they just can't resist trying for a bit of regime change, can they... especially where there is oil involved.

Because some 90% + of Venezuela's exports were oil, paid for in US dollars That's what made the Venezuelan economy boom. Nasty shock for their economy when the price of oil dropped sharply; compounded by the fact that they have a very large amount of dollars, gold and foreign currency (which they could be using to pay for imported food and medical supplies) in overseas banks which won't allow them access to it. This twitter thread tells you all about it; with what appear to be entirely credible sources:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1087482013114863616.html

Of course, I assume that, should a new leader emerge, approved of by the US, the missing money will be released and any success in lifting the economy will be ascribed to a government in tune with US thinking, instead of a terrible lefty socialist one. The sudden access to $2.5 billion will have nothing to do with it, will it?

Though I doubt if the problem of massive corruption (Venezuela, I read somewhere yesterday, is ranked as the 9th most corrupt country in the world) will disappear and I very much doubt if anything will be done for the poor who have been hurt so very badly by this government and the USA.

M0nica Fri 25-Jan-19 18:08:32

I do not understand how a self-appointed new president can be an omen for the return of democracy and the rule of law, let alone good economic management.

As for countries like the US welcoming it. How can they now stand up against coups and government over throws if they accept this.

As for sanctions, I do not think they have contributed to Venzuela's problems. If you have oil to sell, and that is all Venezuela does have, then it will be exported and sold, regardless of whether there are sanctions in place or not. Cuba's problems were so bad because they had no oil and had to import it.

POGS Fri 25-Jan-19 19:53:26

Maizie d

The fact is Venezuala ' was ' one of the wealthiest countries in the world and had ( possibly still has ) more oil than Saudi Arabia if I am not mistaken.

When Hugo Chavez nationalised the oil industry , lock , stock and barrel and when Hugo Chavez nationalised the banks the money investors took flight. Chavez gave jobs to his cronies who often came from backgrounds such as the Army who had not a b----y clue how to run things. Chavez bankrupted the country . He started off doing the right things but by the end of his term he was feted still by the left but thought of totally in an opposite way by others.

Yes the cost of a barrel of oil dropped but Venezuala suffered because of the mismanagement by their Socialist Leader Chavez. Other countries could manage it's not as though Venezuala was the only oil producing country. Oil is at a low now.

I keep saying the same thing but the BBC programme I mentioned in my OP totally chimed with my perception of the history of Venezuala and it is well worth a watch.

MaizieD Fri 25-Jan-19 20:28:00

And the US sanctions POGS? No effect whatsoever in your estimation?

Have you been following this story for many years, or is it an academic interest?

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation I just cannot agree with the US interfering in the affairs of a sovereign country.

M0nica Fri 25-Jan-19 20:30:51

MaizieD. I discussed the ineffectiveness of US sanctions in the post above POGS

Mind you I agree with your comments about US not interfering in affairs of a sovereign country.

MaizieD Fri 25-Jan-19 20:37:09

But, Monica, if you have reserves held abroad which you cannot access to buy vital imports that will contribute to your economic problems.

Though I'm perfectly willing to concede that with the Venezuelan love of corruption access to funds held abroad may not be of much benefit to the population anyway. It'll just get siphoned off somewhere...

I'm glad you agree with me about the US. Having seen their 'interventions' over the years I fear it doesn't bode well.

POGS Fri 25-Jan-19 21:19:27

Maizie d

" And the US sanctions POGS? No effect whatsoever in your estimation"
--

Obviously sanctions have an effect ! Venezuala has been exporting to the USA though hasn't it.?

I also accept that Venezuelans have suffered under the Socialist governments of Chavez and Moduro. I said Chavez started out doing the right things but it descended into a violent, corrupt country.

I also accept the people of Venezuela have been taken over by a Dictator that imprisons the opposition, shoots at it's own people, remains corrupt, the people are literally starving with no medicine or health for the poor, the population have crossed borders in their thousands because their life is so awful.

Do you Maizie d because you seem to be an apologist to me ?

I also accept that we have politicians who still will not say a bad word against the likes of Chavez , Moduro because they align their politics with that of Socialist Venezuela to whom according to them ' we could learn from '. ' a shining example to the world '.

The worst McDonnell can up with is Venezuela wasn't Socialist enough, ' the country has taken a wrong turn '.. Ye Gods .

lemongrove Fri 25-Jan-19 21:28:12

Ye Gods indeed!
And Socialists here trying to defend Maduro’s tactics, well, to be expected I suppose, but totally ridiculous.
Corbyn has scored a massive own goal by praising that brutal regime.Socialist Heaven?😱

trisher Fri 25-Jan-19 21:45:23

It is amazing that actually looking at the true causes of the situation in Venezuela is always regarded by some as expressing support for Chavez or even for Maduro. It seems to be acceptabe to blame socialism completely rather than look logically at the wider reasons. Socialism contributed, but this is an economy built on a single resource -oil- and successive governments have suffered because of that and the fluctuating price. Add to that the problem with currency which led to massive corruption (nothing to do with socialism) add the actions of the USA and huge sanctions and you have a society which is bound to fail.
As Trump advocates a military coup to solve the problem you also have to realise that in Venezuela, an oil rich country which had begun to exert more influence than the US in Latin America there was a very real threat and, as they have always done the Americans are prepared to do almost anything to protect their interests in that region.

lemongrove Fri 25-Jan-19 21:59:06

Yes! Socialism contributed....bigtime!

POGS Fri 25-Jan-19 22:04:55

trisher

" It is amazing that actually looking at the true causes of the situation in Venezuela is always regarded by some as expressing support for Chavez or even for Maduro. It seems to be acceptabe to blame socialism completely rather than look logically at the wider reasons. "

Damned right I do and I do so ' by understanding the wider reasons '.

I blame Chavez and Moduro, I blame Socialism that nationalised anything and everything that moved from Farming , Banks , Industry , Oil . and when the Oil prices dropped the country was importing so much it had nothing to fall back on. It could not sustain it's population as other countries did that also suffered when the price of a barrel of oil went down because those countries accepted alongside investing in people you have to invest in the economics, industrial side too. Chavez and Moduro did not understand what they were getting Venezuela caught up in because the money rolled in and whilst at the start the population had better schools , living standards, health care it was unsustainable because they dined out on the price of a barrel of oil and brought the banks, food , industrial production etc. to a level of incompetence it could not sustain the country. Their good deeds became the nightmare the Venezuelans live under today when Venezuela should still be an oil rich, wealthy country but instead it has debts.

Moduro is a bloody Dictator who is torturing, killing his own people , watching his own people starve, watching his own people die from lack of health care, watching his people flee from his Dictatorship and all those who defend the actions, at least do not say a word about the afore mentioned , are shameful apologists.

trisher Fri 25-Jan-19 22:17:19

Until Oil was nationalised POGS most of the profits were going to the US which I suppose was OK.

lemongrove Fri 25-Jan-19 22:22:21

Thankfully POGS there are just the usual two dissenters where Venezuela is concerned on here.
Let’s hope that dear old Jeremy is never in charge.😱

POGS Fri 25-Jan-19 22:42:20

trisher

Before oil was nationalised Venezuela was a hell of a wealthy country .

You need to get your facts right.

I agree Venezuela had the rich getting richer and the poor never stood a chance but Chavez went along the nationalisation route , carried on corruption and using his cronies . Investors and industrialists left the country because of a Socialist government that did not accept you need more than good thoughts to sustain a country.

I go back to 2 comments that resonated with me from the BBC programme ' REVOLUTION IN THE RUINS: THE HUGO CHAVEZ STORY ' shown 16th Jan 2019. '

'Whilst we had the positive side we also had the slippery side to authoritarianism "
-

" You cannot just vote for the shiny new thing and the promises of ' Romantic Revolutions ' you have to vote for the boring politician that has stable ideas to move people over time '."

trisher Fri 25-Jan-19 22:52:24

Interestingly the Chavez government was arguably the third instance of "Dutch Disease" in Venezuela ,not the first although possibly the worst. And the other two had nothing to do with socialism.

MaizieD Fri 25-Jan-19 23:01:06

Not sure who the 'usual two dissenters' are lemon. If you're referring to me as one of them I'll remind you that I rarely contribute to Venezuela threads because I know how they usually end up when people like you get involved.

As for this, POGS

watching his own people starve,

and,

You cannot just vote for the shiny new thing and the promises of ' Romantic Revolutions ' you have to vote for the boring politician that has stable ideas to move people over time

They seem to me to resonate with a situation very much closer to home.

Amazed how people can get highly indignant about what is going on in another country and ignore what is going on in their own.

Trying to analyse what has caused a problem is not being an 'apologist', BTW