Venezuela. / Chavez / Moduro

POGS I listened to the interview, shame on her , she certainly took the 30 pieces of silver and got into the Lords .

I am sick of the ‘he believes in human rights’, did the people
of the Birmingham bombings not have human rights .

She can’t say anything dismissive of Corbyn POGS because after the whitewash of looking into antisemitism within the LP ( which she chaired) she was rewarded by being pushed up into the HOL.

Did anybody watch Shami Chakrabarti on Sky this morning?

She said :-

" Last year’s reporting on Venezuela was pretty damning and that is in terms of disappearances, that is in terms of crushing dissent, that is in terms of reports of torture of prisoners and political prisoners, and it is completely unacceptable."

“It is incumbent on people like me, as someone of the left, to call out governments and states of the left, because human rights have to be applied with an even hand.”

Fair enough I thought. Then she said when asked by Sophie Ridge about Corbyns stance :-

" Jeremy is a lifelong human rights defender. Sometimes it is difficult for him to cut through in the media because people just say, ‘Well you’re a socialist, just like Venezuela is’.

“He has said that you have to have the rule of law and you have to have human rights. Clearly if you match that with the reporting of Venezuela that is not happening."

In that case Shami Chakrabarti why are the likes of Corbyn / Burgon/McDonnell/Williams/Abbott being mealy mouthed and blaming anybody and everything other than Moduro.

" Jeremy is a lifelong human rights defender ". If and when it suits his politics it could be said.

Excellent discussion.

I'm not running away!! But i was out all today as well so will reply tomorrow. Sleep well people.

Grannypauline what I am interested in knowing is how a truly socialist country comes into being, a question I asked in my longer post further up this page.

I believe that the originally introduction of socialism to China and Russia had just such socialist state as you want in mind, but it immediately runs into difficulties because, not everyone wanted it. Not everyone wants to give up everything they possess to the state; homes, savings, possessions. I am not talking about the rich. I am talking about, ordinary people in ordinary houses, with small businesses that they have built up over a lifetime. How do you get them to voluntarily to give up everything they possess. What happened in |China and Russia, was
coercion and once that happens the truly socialist state is no longer a truly socialist state.

Yes, I know about elections and the will of the majority. But supposing after the election that gave the socialist state its being, at the next election, there is a majority vote against it? Which is, of course, what has happened in Venezuela, except that the election was rigged to ensure the result showed a socialist win. - and again this is what has happened in China and Russia and the drift then is to totalitarianism.

The other thing is that a socialist state is one where the state owns everything and this is a path that the two countries I have discussed did follow with fervour, but they had to change, because far from challenging capitalism it ended up as falling well behind other countries and leaving most of its people impoverished. State ownership leaves no space for the person with a good idea developing it in his garage and study and then pushing the idea, when other people reject it, or pushing on with it, even if they find difficulty finding it. Where in the socialist state is the space for the Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, James Dyson's of this world to develop their revolutionary ideas and then get them adopted?

Grannypauline

If there is' NOT ONE ' country in the world that fits your description of being a ' TRUE SOCIALIST ' country are you of the belief that the far left politicians such as Corbyn/McDonnell/Williams et al who have held Chavez, Moduro and Venezuela as the country and leadership we in the UK could ' Learn From'., ' Follow in it's footsteps ',
' Aspire to be like ARE YOU OF THE OPINION THEY WILL TURN THE UK INTO YOUR ' TRUE SOCIALIST COUNTRY'?

That means the irradication of Capitalism, That is their desire and aim I believe . As we know McDonnell wants to ' 'Overthrow Capitalism ' don't we.

Nationalise ' Everything ' Property, Business, Land, Utilities , everything whether privately owned by us the people or businesses. I think that is their dream too and that is what constitutes a ' TRUE SOCIALIST ' country.

After all that is your interpretation of what ' TRUE SOCIALISM ' is and that is what is required to happen for a country to become a ' A TRUE SOCIALIST ' country .

The back tracking by the far left who once lionised Venezuela and are now having to admit to it's failure as a Socialist Country are tactically saying it failed because it was not a ' TRUE SOCIALIST ' country , something that has never been used before, quite the opposite. So the assumption must be those who say it want to turn the UK into their ' TRUE SOCIALIST ' what State, Dictatorship because it certainly won't be Democratic.

Grannypauline

'It is only that the capitalist system encourages corruption and bribery and that is yet another reason why it must be abolished!'
--

Do you honestly, hand on heart believe the Socialist country of Venezuela isn't corrupt ?

Could you name a country that you believe is a ' true socialist ' country with no capitalism that is not a Dictatorship and has a good balance of economy , human rights and no class distinction .

Perhaps you could prove your point if you could show an example of a ' true socialist ' country that works.

I also asked you :-

Given your stance why do you think Corbyn/Abott/McDonnell/Williams et al have backed Chavez and Moduro ' knowing ' they have used imprisonment, killing , intimidate, persecute, and even criminally prosecute its critics.?

In fact why do you back such a government?

Do you have any response please .
-----

MacDonald interviewed this morning praised Chavez

What is fortuitous - having a life? Or are you implying that I'm running away. I was just out all day but I'm not sure why you are having a go about that!!

I'l have a look and see what it's all about, but I had to go out again so it's a bit late now to reply to anything tonight. If it's OK I'm going to bed now!!

How fortuitous.

I was out. I have a life!!

Please confine posts to the subject in hand not to digs at me. Thanks

Please fill me in though.

How wise of you grannypauline to go missing while the conversation about why real attempts at establishing socialists states have failed in the past and what is needed for a socialist state to work.

Venezuela is NOT a socialist country - certainly not while 70% of economic output comes from private sources.

AND it is certainly led by a very corrupt dictatorship. I am a Corbyn supporter but he is making a big mistake in praising Maduro, or for that matter, Chavez - another leader who thought he could compromise with the multinationals.

But note how quick certain governments are to condemn Maduro while condoning Saudi Arabia. I invite you to think why that might be.

Well Ken Livingstone did not expect so much ' factual ' information to come at him and he seem to sink lower and lower into his seat.

This Week with Livingstone and Question Time with Labour MP Richard Burgon both got short rift.

I despair at Livingstone but Richard Burgon made me shudder to think he is the Labour Shadow Secretary of State for Justice and Shadow Lord Chancellor.

They both personified Corbyn/Momentum and their view on Venezuela and Moduro.

An example of my fear of the far left POGS, Alan Johnson is a socialist , Livinstone is not

Just watching This Week and the Chavez/Moduro apologist Ken Livingstone is making my blood boil with his ignorance and far left spin that the troubles are caused by the US and sanctions .

What the hell does it take for reality to engage the brain to accept what is happening in Venezuela is because of the corrupt management, nationalisation from Chavez and Moduro ?

Thank god for the left political commentators that speak the truth like Alan Johnson on This Week that challenge the likes of Livingstone and thank goodness for the MP's who spoke about the dire situation in Venezuela at the debate in Parliament 28th January :-

www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2019-01-28b.481.0

The far left from Corbyn down are rotten to the core and cannot hide from their past rhetoric and lionising of Chavez/Moduro whilst claiming the ridiculous chant that ''Venezuela was not Socialist enough ' b--ll--ks.

Monica

Nor can I name one.

Thank you for your posts.

POGS No, I cannot, because I think it is an impossibility, for the reasons given in my immediately previous post. A truly socialist state, could only arise as a spontaneous movement of all the inhabitants of the country involved. How likely is that?

Let us suppose the majority (say 52%) spontaneously arise and establish a socialist state. What about the remaining 48%? For the socialist state to work the whole population have got to give themselves up to this system, surrender their all to the control of the state. How do the majority insist on this, unless by force.

The nearest we have ever had to socialist states are the Soviet Union and China, If we set aside the dictatorial and violent and intolerant nature of their governments, there was, in both countries, a real attempt to have a planned economy where everything was owned by the state and managed by the state. And it just did not work. The reason it did not work, was nothing to do with the failings of the government, but central planning just does not work.

Let me take as an example something as simple as a slow cooker. In the UK there are about 10 companies or more making slow cookers. Between them; sizes and how they work varies, some have removable liners etc. It means every purchaser can buy just the slow cooker that suits them, even though the difference between the one they buy and their second choice is minimal. One company, can make a minor change to their design to appeal to one relatively small sector of the market because the buyer will pay more to get that new special feature. Take that comparison over every product people buy. A centralised planning system just cannot cope with it. It produces six models and you just like it or lump it.

Then look at guaranteed jobs and broadly equal pay. These take away all incentives to work well or efficiently. Why should you? No matter how much you skive, the money will come in each month and you will still have your job, and what incentive is their to invention and productivity? Working harder does not get you more money or advantage, when nothing can be changed unless the central office 100s/1000s of miles away agrees and can get all factories everywhere to change together, which will take years, what incentive is there to innovate? The result is poor productivity, poor quality and lack of innovation and development.

These are the factors that brought down the USSR and China realised that quickly enough to move to a mixed economy before the economy collapsed. Since then the Chinese economy has expanded beyond belief and improved the living conditions of the majority of its people.

Monica

I have read your posts with interest.

It is being said / used as an excuse for the troubles in Venezuela by some , Venezuela is ' Not a true Socialist Country ' that's why Hugo Chavez/Moduro have failed Venezuela. Until now they were feted by the far left but it appears even the lionised fall from a pedestal .

I have asked for an example of a country with no capitalism that is not a Dictatorship and has a good balance of economy , human rights and no class distinction . So far no country has been mentioned. Can you think of one?

POGS
or 'stick to the point'

True socialism depends on the perfectability of humankind. Countries where no one cheats, schemes, seeks unfair advantage, bribes or commits any act that might remotely disadvantage another person.

Most religions have such a place, heaven, Nirvana, Jannah, Vaikuntha, Gan Eden, Elysium. They have these places to which one went in the afterlife because they were unattainable in this.

Sadly, this applies to the perfect socialist state.

Jalima

My wording was very abrupt .

I should have simply said something like to get back to the subject.

Sorry!

What the hell has our MP's wages got to do with Venezuela / Moduro .?
Absolutely none, POGS - I don't know why I got sidetracked

grannypauline said that her post was intended for a different thread.
It happens!

What the hell has our MP's wages got to do with Venezuela / Moduro .?

Grannypauline

'It is only that the capitalist system encourages corruption and bribery and that is yet another reason why it must be abolished!'

Do you honestly, hand on heart believe the Socialist country of Venezuela isn't corrupt ?

Could you name a country that you believe is a ' true socialist ' country with no capitalism that is not a Dictatorship and has a good balance of economy , human rights and no class distinction .

Perhaps you could prove your point if you could show an example of a ' true socialist ' country that works.

I also asked you :-

Given your stance why do you think Corbyn/Abott/McDonnell/Williams et al have backed Chavez and Moduro ' knowing ' they have used imprisonment, killing , intimidate, persecute, and even criminally prosecute its critics.?

In fact why do you back such a government?

Do you have any response please .

I survive on a lot less than £28K in London. MPs get rent allowances to live in London, even those who own London property. They should be able to manage. After all, they expect nurses, teachers etc to do so.

I am surprised that you say I grudgingly added expenses, because my post was meant for a different thread and got posted here (in draft form) by mistake. The post that went to the slightly more relevant thread already included (without prompts!) all that about expenses. And of course they need extra for office, London base etc. I'm agreeing they do.