Can anybody explain Brexit please?

No its not inflammatory. If people support somebody and their views, I would be interested to hear why. What is it they admire about that person.

For example some have said words to the effect that Nigel Farage can hold a crowd, talks sense and so on. I happened to hear him speak and I can understand what they mean.

Inflammatory...but true. Alas.

I’m not getting drawn into the topic again Lily65 but can I just say your last remark was inflammatory.... considering your topic was

‘Seriously, without creating bad feeling’

Nobody has got the guts to say what they like about these two people and their ideas.

I'm afraid we do have supporters of Tommy Robinson on here. I have been accused (believe it or not) of being a racist because I posted "not all leave voters were racists but we can be sure that the racists did vote leave"

Upside- down logic. I regard it as utter nonsense typical of the warped thought proccesses of leave voters who support Tommy Robinson and UKIP.

Best of luck with that crystal, if you have supporters of Tommy Robinson on here.

We know people didn’t vote leave for economic reasons. We weren’t going to get a better deal in economic terms than the one we have already got. Immigration was the key at the end of the day. Those who were concerned on one end of the scale plus those who are simply racist at the other. Fair enough. But don’t deny it.

This may have been posted before, but I very much doubt whether those who should read it have done. It is a list of the Euromyths (ie LIES) which have been spread by the pro-brexit media. If you are at all interested in knowing the truth, please have a look at it.

blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

None of us doubts for a minute that many good people were deceived by theses lies.

Oh dear another illusion shattered Lily.

You are lucky to have open minded friends who are prepared to change their minds so many seem to have totally closed theirs. I'm still listening, glad you are too.

'All this Brexit talk is exhausting and I don’t feel we achieve anything by it'....just about sums up Brexit itself, methinks....

Nonnie, I know you are being lighthearted but I didn't! People I know have had a complete turnabout of opinion. I was wondering if I'd missed anything obvious.

No suzied you just don’t get the mindset do you?

For those who don’t have much anyway a bit less isn’t a problem. They don’t fear change. In fact they embrace it as the status quo hasn’t worked for them.

It’s not even about the economy. That why Remain HQ ditched some of the capitalist rhetoric why trying to persuade us to stay in the E.U. it’s about values.

Actually I’m with GabriellaG54 now regarding Brexit (and no I’m not running away!). I think I’ve had enough debate. Remain/Leave are entrenched in their views. I won’t change mine and you won’t change yours and I understand and respect that.

All this Brexit talk is exhausting and I don’t feel we achieve anything by it.

urmstongran so Brexiteers finally admitting we will be poorer when before we were told how much better off we were all going to be. But comparing an equal member of a trading bloc to a "slave" is disingenuous and simply wrong. You could say we will be enslaved to WTO. Agreeing to the backstop is no way an enslavement, its ensuring there is no need for the return of a hard British border. The EU wanted alignment to apply to NI only, but the DUP insists it applies to the whole of the UK. Its the tail wagging the dog here. The WTO rules dictate that countries maintain their customs borders. The continual attempts to blame the EU for the UK's DUP-led stupidity are dishonest and hypocritical.

Yes Fennel I think it was too.

The trade treaties with Japan and Canada and the EU took about 8 years to negotiate. And we expect to have a bespoke deal in a few weeks! Arrogant or what?

"I think you knew exactly what you were doing when you started this thread Lily grin"
Me too .
But it was worth it!

I think you knew exactly what you were doing when you started this thread Lily

Yes of course, all the fit unemployed people will be queuing up to do those jobs and unemployment will go right down. Where are those pigs?

Surely all the eager UK citizens will take on crop picking and care roles?

Our Agricultural Minister has just said on R4 that there will be a 'currency adjustment' which will help our farmers. That's one way of saying the £ will plummet further!

Prior to that I heard there is a plan to allow a limited number of EU workers to come in to pick crops. Presumably this will continue to other areas like care workers and any other jobs we cannot fill. We were promised EU immigration would stop but that doesn't appear to be the case. Yet another undeliverable promise.

our political sovereignty, like everybody else’s, is primarily constrained not by Brussels, but international capital

This, today in The Guardian, might help some understand the reasoning behind Brexit.
It’s not about ‘money’.
It’s about ‘values’.

In Uncle Tom’s Cabin, there is a moment when Augustine St Clare, who owns Tom, suggests that he is better off as a slave than he would be as a free man. “No,” insists Tom. “Why Tom?” asks St Clare. “You couldn’t possibly have earned, by your work, such clothes and such living as I have given you.” “Know’s all that Mas’r,” says Tom. “But I’d rather have poor clothes, poor house, poor everything and have ’em mine, than have the best, and have ’em any man else’s.”

'It is terrible but I still want it': Crewe voters size up no-deal Brexit

It has long been a challenge, particularly for those who are comfortable, to understand why anybody who is struggling would choose to be worse off. Liberals can take it particularly personally when those who would most benefit materially from a change in policy or circumstance opt to reject it. The assumption is that they must be misinformed, ill-informed, uninformed, stupid, naive or cruelly misled.

The agreement – which has yet to be ratified – promises that around 98.6% of goods traded between Canada and the EU will be free of duty, paves the way for access to public procurement between the two markets and empowers regulatory bodies to accept the standards and tests carried out in each other’s jurisdictions. The trade deal doesn’t heighten access to sensitive agricultural products such as eggs or poultry and keeps quotas – albeit boosting them – in place for tariff-free imports of products such as beef and cheese. While the trade deal aims to liberalise services, hundreds of exceptions are listed.

Under Ceta, Canada will have no hand in setting EU regulations or formulating product standards and no access to the banking passport system that would have allowed its banks and financial services to trade freely. *The freedom of movement clauses are primarily focused on businesspeople.^

I think the problem is with services, with which we actually have a trade surplus with the EU.

The bits I've posted from an account of the Canada deal show that

a) it only covers a limited amount of services
b) it does involve some freedom of movement (which is a Red Line for May)

I suspect the Japan deal is similar.

They're both good deals but as services make up the major part of our exports they're not that good for us. And though they are trading goods tariff free they will still have non tariff barriers to contend with. If, as May has aspired to over the past 2 years, we want 'frictionless trade, that requires a CU, which removes the NTBs.

POGS I’m aware the situation in Ireland was historic.
I thought I was pointing out that they have it. We on the other hand had taxes in the first place.

POGS yes but when they negotiate deals they do what is in their interest, not the interest of those they are negotiating with. Why would they? They didn't ask us to leave so it is not their fault. Makes me sad when people deny the realities and say things like 'it will work itself out'.

Let's not forget the politicians who are keenest for the UK to leave the EU. Along with the French fascist Marine le Pen, Trump and Putin were the ONLY foriegn leaders to back the leave vote.

"The spectre that’s haunting Europe today is multifaceted: a Trump‑Brexit‑Putin nexus has taken shape. With the Brexit countdown approaching and European parliament elections due in May, things look ominous, and Mattis’s message will have done little to reassure anyone. But much could change if Brexit is somehow halted.

What has made 2018 a momentous year for Europe is that a simultaneous combination of Trump, Brexit and Vladimir Putin has appeared more clearly – a triple problem for the continent as a whole, Britain included. Thanks to investigative journalism and Robert Mueller’s inquiry we know more about some of the deeper connections beneath the surface. But much has also been in plain sight. This year, Trump’s hostility to the EU (he calls it a “foe”) morphed into a systematic onslaught.

One shocking moment came when Trump’s national security adviser Mike Pompeo gave a speech in Brussels this month lambasting the European project. Meanwhile, both Trump and Putin have made clear they want the Brexit train wreck to run its course. The US president has openly encouraged a no-deal British departure from the EU, and last week Putin mused that Theresa May should “fulfil the will of the people”."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/27/putin-trump-brexit-europe-britain-eu