Warwick University- would you want any dgc of yours to go there?

marye it is ironic that you start a thread about appalling behaviour on social media then cast aspersions like a playground bully

Nonnie, I don't know if threats were made but I personally feel sure that they wouldn't have been mentioned by any investigating team even if they were.

There's a lack of transparency in this case which doesn't sit well, me knowing that certain evidence in many cases is squirrelled away, miraculously.

Ellan I may be wrong but I thought it was a closed group but one of them showed a girl who had been mentioned, which is why we all found out. If I'm wrong I'm sure the OP will tell me. Actually she will probably tell me I'm wrong anyway!

I agree that it looks as if there may well be more to it than we know already but how do we find out? Although if it is worse than we have been told surely the police would have found something to charge them with? The media is often more interested in headlines than information as we all know.

Well Nonnie I have absolutely no idea what thread you are referring to. IIRC I did not start a thread about appalling behaviour on social media but a thread about the appalling behaviour of Warwick in dealing with the appalling behaviour of a group of’men’. Social media allows the message to spread more quickly but had they been writing letters to each other containing the same meassesges and they had been leaked I would have started a thread criticising the university.

There are different stories around about how the posts became public - one thing for sure is that only someone who accessed the posts could have shared them or screen shotted them so they could appear on Twitter. The ‘men’ wrote these posts to each other - who’s denying their guilt and culpability in this regardless of any conspiracy theories re ‘more to it than we know’? They are guilty - the argument is not about that but about how it’s been handled and their punishment. Is that so complicated?

Baggs - I saw no 'victim blaming' posts by you.
maryeliza - I'm assuming we're all on the same side about the men's vile texts so why snipe at people on here?

The big question to me is how do we influence young people to treat each other with respect and to speak out when they are aware of abuse?

Elrel well a good start would be punishing those who behave badly wouldn’t it? And no we are not all on the same side because some posters think the women concerned should just have to put up with maybe bumping into the ‘men’ - I’m not on that side and I guess I’m not alone - criticising that side is not sniping

marye just how many hairs can you split? The 'appalling behaviour' was on social media or are you going to argue with me about that? You have behaved appallingly as well with your nasty insinuations and showed no shame in doing so. As I said 'playground bully' and not even the decency to apologise for your accusations.

Elrel The big question to me is how do we influence young people to treat each other with respect and to speak out when they are aware of abuse? I wish I knew the answer to that. Clearly the OP has no respect for others so is there any hope for SM? I can only hope that the fact that apparently they have been named and shamed by their peers will bring them to their senses although some on here think they will never change. I prefer to think better of our younger generation.

marye will you clarify who you mean by some posters think the women concerned should just have to put up with maybe bumping into the ‘men? You didn't answer me previously when I asked you who you were referring to. It is easy to make unfounded accusations but that simply shows others your character.

Who are saying " it was "just banter" amongst young men." ?
Who are hoping " it would exonerate the ‘men’ to some extent" ?
Who is blaming victims?
Nio-one, as far as I can see, though I am sure someone will be quick enlighten me if any poster has done any of those things. Would it not be better to avoid accusing fellow posters of siding with the offenders here and concentrate on discussing what is the best way to treat young men with these attitudes, and how best to prevent others from thinking and acting the same way

It's a little bit complicated by the fact that we don't know what the university's reasoning was behind re-admitting some of the men after appeal.

It's also not clear that any actual threats were made and therefore whether a crime was committed. Since the police don't seem to have been involved it would appear that a crime has not been committed. If those taking part in the group chat never intended to make their comments public, they have committed what Zaid Jilani calls an offensive but symbolic wrong, which he argues is different from a criminal wrong. I also think he argues that such things need different responses.

Note: the article by Jilani is about a situation in the US over something racist a Democrat Governor is accused of doing 35 years ago but some of the arguments Jilani makes seem relevant to cases like the one at Warwick.

Re the avoidance tactic I mentioned. I did it at a university with three thousand students rather than twenty-three thousand. Unless the relevant people are on the exact same courses, it should be possible. Admittedly, it would be better if it wasn't necessary.

If anyone thinks it’s ok for the ‘men’ to come back whilst the women are still there, then that’s what those posters think. Personally I’d ban them for life but at the very least until all the women have finished.

I'd like to have been a fly on the wall when they confronted their parents to explain just why they had been "rusticated."

Baggs It's a little bit complicated by the fact that we don't know what the university's reasoning was behind re-admitting some of the men after appeal. I totally agree. We need facts. Unfortunately when I wanted to know what the 'new evidence' was I was accused as above!

I'm surorised you don't want them castrated and their genitalia stuffed into their mouths while they are publicly executed, MaryEliza

And no, I am not condoning their actions or approving their mindsets, just preferring re-education to throwing them straight onto the scrapheap.

* Baggs* the ‘men’ posted about what they would do to named women in specific and horrifying detail including how they would ejaculate all over her body once they’d finished raping her. If that’s not a threat, it’ll do as one until a ‘real’ threat comes along. As for avoidance tactics, it shouldn’t even be being discussed as a possible tactic.

Oh don’t be so silly Elegran - have you read Iam s posts about re-education and rehabilitation - I think I’ll takeher views based on her real life work experiences over others on here thank you very much. My point remains that they should have been banned for life and it was upto them to study in another way or even - perish the thought, apologise and not go back. But I do realise of course that the ‘men’s well being and futures must come before those of say women - I’m so mean

Not a single person here says or thinks that ^"‘men’s well being and futures must come before those of say women" MaryEliza. That is just you - (not being mean, not silly) - but inventing base and mean and downright stupid motives for other people.

I think marye that you are the last person to suggest anyone should apologise when you make false accusations and don't apologise. Don't do as I do, do as I tell you comes to mind.

Elegran anyone who thinks that they should be allowed back whilst any of the women are still there is putting the ‘men’ before the women.

Where ever their future should be it should not be at Warwick.

Wherever they go to complete their studies, they should be required to first attend a course on how to treat others as though you believe they are worth valuing and respecting - and how not to treat their penises as instruments of punishment.

As well as their misogyny they had a nice line in racist and anti Semitic comments plus hilarious jokes about FGM so they might need several courses.

At least some of these attitudes must have come from their home. Possibly Family Therapy is necessary.

It's hard not to assume that as MOnica says, some of the misogynistic, racist, anti semitic attitudes shown by these young men may have been at least condoned in their families of origin. Maybe not, it's easy to blame their parents but these young men are old enough to take responsibility for their own behaviour.
It's difficult to challenge and change racist, misogynistic or other bigoted belief systems unless the person on the receiving end of the Therapy recognises the need for it. Therapy is tough for anyone who makes a real commitment to the challenges it makes. A simple though slightly different comparison is with offenders. Many of them would prefer a short prison sentence to a year on Probation. Well they would when a year on Probation meant weekly meetings with your supervising officer, alongside attendance at groups aimed at challenging your offending behaviour.
I wish we did have the services to work with these young men but we don't. I wish the young men would seek out and fund their own therapy. If I was mother to any of them, I'd be arranging and paying for appropriate therapy and I'd have significant expectations of my son.