Poll results from Labour First

I most certaintly wouldn’t have voted for him the first time, feel so betrayed , if I had known he was working against the party following 1983 election or invited leaders of the IRA to Westminster following the Brighton bombing when his colleagues were grieving, no way.

Grandad

"POGS in response to your posts @ 17:32 and 17:40 today (05/02/18) then I feel that you and others on this forum do not recognise or accept the fundamental changes that have come about in the Labour party and the broader Labour movement in recent years""
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Au contraire

We do recognise and accept the fundamental changes in the Labour Party but whilst those changes suit some they have been too much for others.

Yes the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum/Labour Party unquestionably has done an excellent job in recruitment to the grass roots by both new and' return ' Labour members and of course those who were kicked out decades ago but have found a new voice .

Labour will possibly split in two and the far left of the party will keep the Labour Party name but I wonder if the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum/Labour Party had ' openly ' fought as a far left / Marxist party it would have gotten this far ?

POGS in response to your posts @ 17:32 and 17:40 today (05/02/18) then I feel that you and others on this forum do not recognise or accept the fundamental changes that have come about in the Labour party and the broader Labour movement in recent years. Jeremy Corbyn did indeed vote against the Labour leadership many times during the Blair/Brown era. However, those "rebellions" were rarely reported in the media and Corbyn never tried to make that otherwise.

In the above, those that are causing the current problems in the parliamentary Labour party continually draw the attention of the media to their activities, and that has caused huge resentment against them within the party and the broader Labour movement in the country.

It also has to be seen that since the electoral defeats of 2010 and 2014 the trade unions, primarily through their grassroots activist, have been determined that never again shall it be that they will fund a Labour party that has no commitment to their interests such as that which occurred during the twelve years of Blair/Brown government. In that, not once did Blair ever address any trade union conference and not one section of the numerous Thatcher anti-trade union legislative acts was rescinded.

However, with Corbyns election as leader of the Parliamentary Labour party, he backed the unions and other rank and file demands for far greater democracy in the party. Therefore the Labour National executive has been greatly expanded to include many more who represent the Broad base of the movement, and the annual conference has been expanded similarly to add many more of the above representatives.

Therefore and as stated, the present Labour party is not in any way similar to the party of Blair and Brown or even that of Edd Miliband as its leader. The fundamental changes that have been brought about will not be reversed in my opinion, and those that cannot accept those changes are most certainly unwelcome in the party.

Further in my opinion (for what it is worth) even if the Labour party were to be defeated in the next general election, still things would not change. In that, the grassroots of the of the movement most definitely feel that in twelve years of government they received nothing from a Labour party administration they financed throughout that time. Indeed they witnessed Blair and his cronies "cosy up" to the bankers that brought this country to its knees in 2008.

To add to the above, the trade unions have achieved in the last eighteen months significant victories through the courts in regard to people employed in the Gig Economy. Although that battle is not entirely over at this point in time, it is i believe making those unions wonder if the Parliamentary party is as essential to their future as has been believed for very many years. The Gig Economy has been seen as the most significant threat to the trade union movement in recent times. Should they bring about the end of that those awful employment conditions without the aid of Parliment or the parliamentary labour Party, then a big change of attitude and in that rank and file policy could be on the cards?

I feel that first evidence of that change may have seen yesterday when Jeney Formy told the NEC and the parliamentary Labour Party some home truths regarding anti-semitism in the movement that many did not wish to hear.

For the future watch that space, or should it be that office.

Grandad

" those MPs who have continuously acted against the elected leadership and policies brought forward by the same, should in the view of many be de-selected. In that, if they had any respect for themselves, the electorate and the party that gave them their standing they would have resigned long ago."

You mean like Corbyn should have had respect for himself and resigned every time he voted against the Labour Leader in the past. He was known for back bench rebellious attitude but I never heard anybody call for his ' Deselection '.

So why should it be the case only some should resign ?

You are bringing the subject back to Labour is a ' Broad Church ' argument. It might have been , before the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum/Labour Party was formed.

Grandad

" POGS, in regard to your post @ 14:52 today (05/02/18) it is very unlike you to place on this forum what can only be described as "a rant."
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A RANT! Oh dear the points I raised must have hit a nerve if your response is to try and belittle.

Well Grandad I have been doing so for over 2 years now , when it became blatantly clear so quickly what the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum group as they were back then were up to.

Do you remember the Channel 4 Dispatches programme on Momentum in 2016 as just one example? We all heard from the horses mouth in that programme Momentum were calling for a major ' Deselection Prorocess ' back then.
Some posters did not believe it would ever happen but they were wrong .

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1230022-Channel-4-Dispatches-Momentum-Party

I realise the LP still has a high membership, but I read that the numbers are dropping, and members not renewing.
Corbyn ( or the LP) should be much much higher in the polls at this stage than they are, which is neck and neck with the Conservatives.If there was to be a GE it would result in a hung Parliament again.

I would settle for an honest leader

Pity previous leaders hadn’t told Corbyn to ‘ bugger off’ , we would still have a Labour Party

lemongrove, membership of the Labour party is still above half a million. Considering the antisemitism allegations that have been levied against the party, along with the Brexit situation, the above figure is indeed a very real achievement.

Against that, what do we have in the ERG/Conservative party a "claimed membership of around one hundred thousand with some analysts doubting it is even that.

As I have already stated on this forum, there is a feeling in the Labour party/movement that a more charismatic leader is required I believe. However, do not underestimate the loyalty that the grassroots have towards Corbyn, for he has remained loyal to the party conference policy on Brexit even though that has cost him dear. In that, those rank and file members will continue to stand with Corbyn.

There will be no going back to the days of Blair and Brown when often low paid trade union members financed the party through their affiliation subscription, while the executive did a "Cosy up" to the bankers

What is Stalinist about deselection/reselection? To be able to regularly choose which candidate the local party organisation works for and supports is called democracy.

I would actually like to see immediate right of recall too. If MPs no longer reflect the views of the local party that helped them into their posts then they can always join another party or stand as independents.

I wish that they had got the guts to break away and form a new party, a centre party to rival the other two.
However, Corbyn may have ‘peaked’ now and is not so popular.Membership is dropping too, I read, so waiting perhaps was the right option, who knows.

POGS, in regard to your post @ 14:52 today (05/02/18) it is very unlike you to place on this forum what can only be described as "a rant."

You state that certain MPs who did not support Corbyn in his leadership election(s) and have carried out constant disruption against Jeremy Corbyn in the parliamentary party since those elections were aware of "what was coming down the line." In that, they should be aware, for Corbyns election as leader was by overwhelming majority's on both occasions with those ballots carried out over the entire Labour movement in the country.

In the above, those MPs who have continuously acted against the elected leadership and policies brought forward by the same, should in the view of many be de-selected. In that, if they had any respect for themselves, the electorate and the party that gave them their standing they would have resigned long ago.

Of course, we hear week on week that the above MPs are to "break away" and form a new centre group with who else we do not know. However, they never have the *actual guts" to carry out their much-publicised plans. The Labour party is a very changed organisation since the days of Blair and Brown, and many in that organisation are saying to the above people "if you cannot accept those changes, then bugger off", without a doubt.

I hope they will stand as independent when deselected POGS

Grandad

" POGS, what I stated in regard to the increased powers of the District/Constituency parties in MP selection/de-selection is only that which was sanctioned by the Labour party conference. The finalisation of that procedure was to be placed before Labours NEC last Tuesday but was not balloted on as the MPs on that body had to be back in the House of Commons due to the Brexit votes."
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Yes we know!

The ' increased powers 'for ' DESELECTION ' Grandad is the culmination of years of Jeremy for Leader/Momentum / Labour Party factions who have made no bones about the direction the Corbyn/McDonnell followers were taking to ' 'DESELECT ' the Centre Labour MP's , traitors as some have been called because they are not from the ' FAR LEFT/ MARXIST ' faction Corbyn and those who sit at Labours top table come from. The Parliamentary Labour Party Members / MP's have from day one of Corbyn taking the Leadership knew and understood what was coming down the track and there is plenty of factual evidence to say so.

The Jeremy for Leader / Momentum Labour Party has succeeded in their aims and the ' ' Clean Sweep ' by Jeremy for Leader/ Momentum / Labour Party now in charge of the Labour National Executive / NEC is the end goal in the back of the net.

I hope the likes of MP Frank Field who jumped before he was pushed out of the Labour Party ( he had been there before under similar circumstances with the far left of Labour ) and now standing as an Independent is one of many who will stand as Independent Candidates at the next General Election if they are Deselected and win because they were once hailed as great Labour MP's once.

From my experience of over 50 years as a Labour Party member who has held various positions in the party I would advise the best way to understand what members want is to listen to party members from all walks of life .

Just listening to momentum for example, you will not know what non momentum members think or want .

This is why Blair and Brown won three consecutive elections, they listened to members and non members across the country

Ah, thank you Grandad, it is clearer now.

Anniebach, as usual, your above post makes no sense. Obvious you state, with no links to subject matter or reference to any post in the thread, do you expect forum member to be thought readers?

First election for leadership there were 5 standing .

Second election for leadership there were two Smith and Corbyn

Therefore even for me who failed maths it’s rather obvious isn’t it ?

Jalima1108 Quote [ Correct me if I'm wrong, Grandad, but didn't you say that you are not a member of the Labour Party? ] End Quote

Jalima1108, as I have stated many times, my company carries out regular industrial safety training courses for the Unite Union and the TUC. In that, many activist attend who are involved with the political side of the Union through their Branches and various committees etc. During breaks in those tutorial sessions if you talk to those activists you gain quite some knowledge of "what is going on."

I also retain my membership of the Unite Union in gratitude of what their education sector did for me in years past. Therefore i receive all the emails and other correspondence that go with such membership.

By way of both the above, I and others in our business ensure we maintain a good knowledge of current events in the Labour movement as that helps us to retain the Unite Union and TUC business.

I have always admired FF too. An MP of great intellect and compassion.

I have no political affiliations and tend to listen to them all before calling them a pile of crooks, cheats and conmen but Frank Field has always struck me as a man of principle, a genuine person who wants to help people without personal ambition or virtue signaling. Which of course is why so many labour people don’t like him.....the irony!

Yvette didn't stand the second time around.

If JC is such a glorious leader of the Opposition, how come they LP is falling behind the worse government we've had in years. The latest research confirms that the Leave vote was influenced by the governments dreadful austerity programme. People wanted change and instead what we have is a dogs breakfast of a negotiating team, trying to do an impossible piece of work and a leader of the opposition who must have splinters in his rear end from the fence sitting.

He's going to climb Kilimanjaro now Anniebach

Correct me if I'm wrong, Grandad, but didn't you say that you are not a member of the Labour Party?

If not, I am very impressed at your extensive knowledge of the Labour Party. Do you just follow it all very carefully?

I think it was just Owen Smith and Angela Eagle who stood for leadership against Corbyn. (how did I know that - I'm not a member of the LP either!)

I can’t see Yvette Cooper without remembering her husband’s Gangsta Style dance on Strictly.