Breakaway Labour MP’s

Those who wish to avoid any focus on Israel's policies towards the Palestinians (eg land grabbing and demolishing Palestinian homes, shooting unarmed demonstrators, etc, etc.), must shut down such criticism by discrediting anyone who make such claims.

Peter Oborne, an experienced journalist, has been highly critical of the Conservative Party's relationship with Israel - and also with Saudi Arabia - nations of differing faiths but both having great economic, political and strategic influence in the world.

Oborne has written about the Conservative Party's strong support of Israel's actions and its great reluctance to express disapproval, even when dozens of unarmed protesters are killed and thousands injured (as contained in the UN Independent Commission of Inquiry report into the Gaza protests in 2018, which suggested these killings and maimings may well constitute war crimes or crimes against humanity. The Lib Dem Friends of Palestine website contains detailed film footage of these killings/maimings).

We are now in a sort of Kafkaesque situation where if a person or organisation feels pressured by those around him/her to apologise for remarks that have been pronounced to be anti-semitic, such apology will merely set their supposed anti-semitism in stone. If they refuse to bow to apressure and apologise (because they do not accept such a label), that too will be taken as confirmation that they are anti-semitic. And if a person defends anyone who has been labelled in such a way they will share the same fate. as will the group to which they belong.

Some people in the Labour Party have sought to present the Palestinian side of what is happening, bearing in mind that the power to influence opinion in Britain is heavily weighted in favour of Israel. Here, 80% of Conservative Party MPs belong to Friends of Israel - tellingly, there is no Friends of Palestine in the Conservative Party. The Labour and Lib Dem Parties have membership spread across both groups.

Israel will not tolerate criticism and those who are critical of it can expect a great deal of effort being exerted to discredit them. Thus, if anyone questions the grounds for determining anti-semitism, or criticises Israel's treatment of the Palestinians or suggests that people who are critical of those policies have a right to express their views without automatically being described as "anti-semitic", they can be sure that they too will be pronounced "anti-semitic".

Fennel what other people think is their choice,

Eleothan it seems you choosing to bring Israel and Palastine into this is a reason to draw attention away from the fact there are anti semites who ,for God know what reason , hold hatred for Jews.

Denial doesn’t change the fact there are people who are anti semetic ,

Fennel / Eloethan

Anniebach did not attribute the message Joan Ryan received to anybody and I don't think a fellow Labour MP would cross many peoples mind to be honest. It could be somebody from left or right of politics I agree and hopefully we will find out .

Joan Ryan has given the police the 2 recent disgusting 'death threat and rape letters ' and a car registration number that a neighbour near her constituency office reported to her staff as possibly watching her office. Her office staff are scared and I am sure she will not have had only these two recent messages over the past few years.

I watched Joan Ryan being interviewed on Sky News this morning and she reiterated what many posters have been saying since the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum Party was instigated and Corbyn subsequent winning of the Leadership.

news.sky.com/story/antisemitism-intimately-related-to-labours-politics-says-mp-who-quit-party-11653947

The video link shows only part of her interview but it certainly corroborates what many posters have been saying on GN .

"I think the fact that over three-and-a-half years they have not managed to deal with this problem in any way that eradicates it, demonstrates that it is institutionally racist, they don't understand the problem and they are not taking the measures needed to tackle it."

The comment you quote above Anniebach would, I'm fairly sure, fall within the "hate crime" category in that it is undoubtedly racist because it contains hateful, obscene and threatening language aimed at a specific racial/religious group. Presumably it is possible to identify who made this comment and prosecute him/her. If it is not possible to trace them, then why is it assumed that such person is a Labour supporter? Someone posing as a Labour supporter could very effectively bring the party into disrepute. The Labour Party has always campaigned against, and introduced laws against, any form of racism, when other parties on the right have resisted such moves. A 2017 YouGov poll found that anti-semitic statements were most likely to be endorsed by supporters of parties on the right, including the Conservative Party, less likely to be endorsed by Labour supporters, and least likely to be endorsed by Lib Dem supporters. However, Jewish people stated they were more likely to associate anti-semitism with Labour. However, 63% of those responding identified themselves as Conservative voters, as opposed to 23% for Labour. I believe that fact has some relevance. Also, criticism of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians is not looked kindly upon by large sections of the Jewish population who, it could be argued, seek to de-legitimise such criticisms by describing them as "anti-semitic".

The people who jostled and intimidated Anna Soubry, shouting in her face that she was, "on the side of Hitler", "a traitor", etc, outside the Houses of Parliament recently were investigated. One has, I believe, been charged. This person also has a record of posting Islamophobic, comments designed to stir up hatred. Is it suggested that these opinions are shared by all Brexit supporters, that they endorse such behaviour and that they too should, en masse, be declared to be mysoginistic, racist bullies?

Annie you must be more careful in saying who said what.
Give links to your quotes.
Some people might think your quote about the threat to Joan Ryan could mean that a Labour MP said it (God forbid).

Williamson is fighting to get the expelled party member, who verbally attacked Ruth Smeeth , back into the party

Still some Labour members/voters will not accept that people like Williamson are what makes for anti-semitism in the LP.He may well be anti-semitic himself.....sounds like it if he doesn’t think the LP has anything to apologise for!
There isn’t simply a ‘campaign’ against the LP and Corbyn for no reason Eloethan for goodness sake there are enough instances of racism from the hard left of the Party,
And it seems to be generally understood that Williamson
(Who is from the hard left btw) is a prime example of this.
I can’t understand this mentality of ‘my Party right or wrong’ from intelligent people.
I have no absurd loyalties to any one political Party, nor am I a member of any, and am glad of it.

Joan Ryan received this threat

‘Corbyn is a decent man you lying Jew whore, you need to be shoved back in the ovens c***, sucking , Jewish c***’

Williamson said ‘ Labour had been to apologetic into response to complaints of anti semetism ‘

Can anyone be too apologetic into complaints of anti semetism

There is much more to Williamson’s suspension than him saying Labour shouldn’t keep apologising.
No one in this discussion has suggested the actions of the Isrealigovernment towardsthe Palestinians is anything other than disgusting.
I don’t know how often that has to be repeated.

Apologies for posting such a long piece of text. I had intended to post a couple of quotes and the link for those who were interested.

Williamson has been called an anti-semite for saying that Labour should not keep apologising for anti-semitism. For expressing that opinion, he has been labelled an anti-semite. It is really coming to something when people who refute the suggestion of widespread anti-semitism in the Labour Party are automatically labelled as racists.

Criticism of the behaviour of Israel towards Palestinians is, in my view, justified and necessary. Death threats and racist comments are neither and, where they have occurred, should be dealt with by law.

This constant barrage of criticism against the Labour Party has been going on for more than a year now. It has damage the Labour Party in the eyes of the general public but, perhaps more importantly, it has completely obliterated any discussion of recent events in Palestine.

The Liberal Democrats Friends of Palestine website has film footage of the many young men being shot and killed during the recent demonstrations. It is quite clear from the footage that these young men, whilst shouting and angry, were not armed. Over 60 of them were killed and thousands injured. One Israeli soldier was killed - away from the site of the demonstration. That website also contains the report of the UN Human Rights Council of 28 February 2019 which statesNo Justification for Israel to Shoot Protesters with Live Ammunition

Back
28 February 2019

Arabic | Hebrew

The UN Independent Commission of Inquiry on the 2018 Gaza protests

GENEVA (28 February 2019): The United Nations Independent Commission of Inquiry on the protests in the Occupied Palestinian Territory today presented its findings. The report focuses on the demonstrations in the Gaza Strip, referred to as the “Great March of Return and the Breaking of the Siege”.

“The Commission has reasonable grounds to believe that during the Great March of Return, Israeli soldiers committed violations of international human rights and humanitarian law. Some of those violations may constitute war crimes or crimes against humanity, and must be immediately investigated by Israel,” said the Chair of the Commission, Santiago Canton of Argentina.

The Commission was mandated by the Human Rights Council in May 2018 to investigate all alleged violations and abuses of international humanitarian law and international human rights law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, in the context of the large-scale protests that began in Gaza on 30 March 2018. The Commission comprises Santiago Canton of Argentina (Chair), Sara Hossain of Bangladesh and Betty Murungi of Kenya.

More than 6,000 unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers, week after week at the protest sites by the separation fence.

The Commission investigated every killing at the designated demonstration sites by the Gaza separation fence on official protest days. The investigation covered the period from the start of the protests until 31 December 2018. 189 Palestinians were killed during the demonstrations inside this period. The Commission found that Israeli Security Forces killed 183 of these protesters with live ammunition. Thirty-five of these fatalities were children, while three were clearly marked paramedics, and two were clearly marked journalists.

According to the Commission’s data analysis, the Israeli Security Forces injured 6,106 Palestinians with live ammunition at the protest sites during this period. Another 3,098 Palestinians were injured by bullet fragmentation, rubber-coated metal bullets or by hits from tear gas canisters. Four Israeli soldiers were injured at the demonstrations. Four Israeli soldiers were injured at the demonstrations. One Israeli soldier was killed on a protest day but outside the protest sites.

“There can be no justification for killing and injuring journalists, medics, and persons who pose no imminent threat of death or serious injury to those around them. Particularly alarming is the targeting of children and persons with disabilities,” said Sara Hossain. “Many young persons’ lives have been altered forever. 122 people have had a limb amputated since 30 March last year. Twenty of these amputees are children.”

The Commission found reasonable grounds to believe that Israeli snipers shot at journalists, health workers, children and persons with disabilities, knowing they were clearly recognizable as such.

Unless undertaken lawfully in self-defence, intentionally shooting a civilian not directly participating in hostilities is a war crime. The Commission found reasonable grounds to believe that individual members of the Israeli Security Forces, in the course of their response to the demonstrations, killed and injured civilians who were neither directly participating in hostilities, nor posing an imminent threat. These serious human rights and humanitarian law violations may constitute war crimes or crimes against humanity.

The Commission took note of the Israeli claim that the protests by the separation fence masked “terror activities” by Palestinian armed groups. The Commission found however that the demonstrations were civilian in nature, with clearly stated political aims. Despite some acts of significant violence, the Commission found that the demonstrations did not constitute combat or military campaigns.

The applicable legal framework was thus based in international human rights law. This assessment did not change even though the commission’s investigation revealed that some demonstrators were members of organized armed groups. Others were members of political parties. International human rights law prohibits the use of force based solely on a person’s actual or alleged affiliation to any group, rather than their conduct.

The Commission found that some members of the Higher National Committee organising the protests, which includes Hamas representatives, encouraged or defended demonstrators’ use of indiscriminate incendiary kites and balloons, causing fear among civilians and significant damage to property in southern Israel. The Commission concluded that Hamas, as the de facto authority in Gaza, failed to prevent these acts.

The Commission conducted 325 interviews with victims, witnesses and sources, and gathered more than 8,000 documents. An integral part of the investigation was comprehensive analysis of social media, and of vast amounts of audio-visual material showing incidents, including drone footage.

The Commission was mandated by the UN Human Rights Council to focus on accountability and identify those responsible for violations and alleged international crimes.

“The Commission will place the relevant information in a confidential file to be handed over to the High Commissioner of Human Rights, to provide access to this information to national and international justice mechanisms. The International Criminal Court is already concerned with this situation,” said Betty Murungi.

As the one-year anniversary of the Great March of Return on 30 March draws closer, the Commissioners urged all concerned to exercise restraint.

The large-scale killing and maiming of 30 March last year, when 18 people were killed and over 700 people shot, and of 14 May, when 60 people were killed and over 1100 people shot, must not be repeated. “The shooting must stop,” said Sara Hossain.

“The onus is now on Israel to investigate every protest-related killing and injury, promptly, impartially and independently in accordance with international standards, to determine whether war crimes or crimes against humanity were committed, with a view to holding accountable those found responsible”, said Santiago Canton. “We also urge the organisers, the demonstrators, and the de facto authorities in Gaza, to ensure that the Great March of Return is entirely peaceful, as it is intended to be.”

“The Commission finds that these protests were a call for help from a population in despair”, Santiago Canton reminded. “Not only Israel but also the de facto authorities led by Hamas and the Palestinian Authority have responsibilities towards them. The Commission calls on Israel to lift the blockade of Gaza, and on all three duty bearers to comply with their responsibilities and improve the living situation in Gaza.”

The Israeli authorities did not respond to repeated requests by the Commission for information and access to Israel and to the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

A fuller report, containing detailed factual and contextual information and legal analysis will be published and presented to the Human Rights Council on 18 March 2019 in Geneva.

PECS

Why do you not believe the Labour MP's and Councillors who are saying antisemitism, harassment, bullying and intimidation has become a problem since the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum Party/ Labour Party took over the soul of Labour ?

No POGS I posted a link somewhere about 1980s racist issues in LP that were a concern. Sadly it is not a recent phenomena and should have been sorted along time ago. There is a lot of racism in all political parties. Sadly it reflects levels of racism in our society.

Good to see a clear anti racist statement and I welcome it.

Oh deary me, there is politician bashing on another thread , how nasty ?

Jalima

Agreed. If it were not for Corbyn there would have been no need of this thread!

I see this has degenerated into yet another JC-bashing thread.
I do think that mentioning the Leader of HM Opposition is relevant when discussing the fact that Labour MPs have left the party.

If all was well within the party why would they want to leave?

Thank you POGS

That is a significant statement, thanks POGS

I think there is at last an honesty and will to push things forward by some decent Labour members who have had enough too.

Extracts:-

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/28/labour-worst-day-shame-tom-watson-luciana-berger-resignation

Almost 500 Labour supporters of Jeremy Corbyn have signed an open letter apologising to the Jewish community for the party’s “collective failure” over tackling antisemism.

“We are Labour members who support Jeremy Corbyn in his leadership and the progressive, socialist programme and anti-racist principles of the Labour party.

“We have seen antisemitism from Labour members and supporters, online or offline. We recognise that as a movement we have been too slow to acknowledge this problem, too tolerant of the existence of antisemitic views within our ranks, too defensive and too eager to downplay it.

“We sincerely apologise to the Jewish community, and our Jewish comrades in the party, for our collective failure on this issue to date.”
--

What a difference of opinion between those members who speak in honesty and those members who think Labour MP's have ' not been intimidated enough ' and deny it is a problem!

And an observation I second PECS. I just can’t see how nationalising public transport can be worse than the current nonsense.

Everywhere I have travelled on state run trains in Europe (France/ Spain) have had cheaper fares and were efficient. Just an observation!

Some brutal posters on this thread, haters and bashers ?

However, if we stay in the EU, it will surely put an end to a lot of his aspirations including renationalisation which would be a small bonus!

How on earth do you reach that ridiculous conclusion, Jabberwocky?

There was nothing in the last LP manifesto which couldn't be done within Europe. Even renationalisation is achievable. Have you not noticed that some EU states have nationalised transport systems? Has it failed to register with you that the East Coast mainline has been nationalised, for the second time while we are still in the EU

I sometimes wonder if all you fairness and greater equality haters have actually read the manifesto. Or if you have any understanding at all of the immense damage that the tory austerity policies have done to the UK.

I think a little balance in arguments would make it more purposeful and mature!