Are those condeming the Labour Party confusing Anti Zionism with Anti Semetism

Joelsnan

In link / article you posted to architectsforsocialhousing do you believe had the characters not been portrayed as Jewish but were facially recognisable as being Arabic wearing say a
Throbe and Ghutra the wall mural would not be deemed as anti Muslim?

I noted in your link/article this comment :-

Enter – stage left – the Leader of the Labour Party. In October 2012, only a month after the mural had been completed, , the Mayor of Tower Hamlets before he was removed from office in 2015 for corrupt and illegal practices and disqualified from holding electoral office for five years, announced to his constituents:

‘I have received a number of complaints that the mural has anti-Semitic images. I share these concerns. Intentional or otherwise, the images of the bankers perpetuate anti-Semitic propaganda about conspiratorial Jewish domination of financial and political institutions. Where freedom of expression runs the risk of inciting racial hatred then it is right that such expression should be curtailed. I have asked my officers to do everything possible to see to it that this mural is removed.’

I think Lutfur Rahman was correct and it does ' run the risk of inciting racial hatred '. Funny how tolerance of racial hatred/ stereotyping depends on the subject rather than simply being evidential because it suits.

I would love to know just where all these accusations of anti-semitism originate. I wonder if someone has been disciplined for some unacceptable behaviour and, as is the case with minority groups, has claimed prejudice because of their race/religion? There is no basis for anti-Jewish feeling in Britain, they have been part of our society and politics for a very long time.

Grandad

'For as Jenny Formby stated in her usual forthright manner to the NEC, "it is impossible to police what every person states in a movement of six and a half million people."
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You are to be commended on your repeated promotion of Jenny Formby but can I point out some facts about the Formby /Labour investigation into antisemitism in the Labour Party , which I am happy to be corrected on if I have given misinformation.

1). There was criticism that the figures only included complaints made since ' April last year ', when complaints have been made far longer than that. It is also being questioned as to the criteria by which some members had received a conduct reminder and no further action.

Formy responded: “To identify complaints of antisemitism, staff would have to go through every single complaint received in the earlier period. This would be hugely time-consuming and would take their efforts away from the important task of processing complaints.” However, she confirmed the party had expelled seven members before April.
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2). Labour investigated 673 alleged cases and expelled 12 party members since last April.

The party revealed the figures in an email to MPs, and suggested no earlier figures could be compiled because there was “no consistent and comprehensive system for recording and processing cases of antisemitism”.

673 alleged cases is very high but as Labour MP Margaret Hodge made a valid point when said she alone had submitted more than 200 examples of “vile antisemitism” where she believed the evidence showed they had connections with Labour.

Who knows the truth of how many complaints have been filed?
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C ). The ' email ' Formby sent to MPs, suggested no earlier figures could be compiled because there was “no consistent and comprehensive system for recording and processing cases of antisemitism”.

It is reported Iain McNicol ( former Labour Party General Secretary ) disputed that claim in a private meeting with Labour MPs saying such a system ' had been in place.'
What is the truth?
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I could go on but the Labour Party General Secretary Jenny Formbys Investigation is being viewed in a similar vein to the Shami Chakrabarti Investigation , a bit of a whitewash.

Anyone can follow the Israeli news by reading online eg Jerusalem Post, Haaretz (the Land) etc.
The latest significant thing - a new political alliance between 2 ex generals threatens to oust Netanyahu.
A country run by generals?

There is nothing anti Semitic about questioning the agression and land-grabbing tactics of Israel. Indeed by not discussing these openly for fear of being labelled racist or anti Semitic we are falling into the same trap as turned a blind eye to the grooming gangs of predominantly Asian heritage.

Ardent Zionist detest Corbyn and always have because of his ‘support ‘ of Hammas. Whether you see Hammas as a force for good or evil is very much ‘one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter’.

There are three factions behind this smear campaign. Firstly the political right. Secondly the Blairite-New Labour wing of the Labour Party and finally the powerful Jewish/Zionist backers who have funded the Labour Party in the past and at least one of whom is now funding the Independent Group.

Corbyn doesn’t really stand a chance against this triumvirate.

'Zionist' is term much used by anti-Semites, but very few others.

As a baffled onlooker I would utterly disagree with this statement.

1) Zionist is a useful term to describe supporters of Israel's policy and actions. How else would one distinguish between supporters and non supporters (be they Jewish or non Jewish)

2)What evidence is there that it is a term used mostly by anti semites (other than the MSM, of course)?i

3) I think this statement is doing almost exactly what the OP is asking about. Except that it is not so much 'confusing' the two as 'equating' them. So round in circles we all go again.

Replies as expected , denial

however this is done in the Zionist mission to further the state of Israel. This strikes me as an anti-semitic remark. 'Zionist' is term much used by anti-Semites, but very few others. Israel is a country recognised as such by the UN. It is entitled to defend its borders.

But I will go no further, because like many people I think the country is its own worst enemy and many of its actions are totally abhorrent.

Joelsnan thank you for that very interesting and erudite article.

Sadly the thinking will be beyond the ken of many, especially those who do not want to look deeper into this. And equally sadly this propaganda campaign has done its job.

Apologies it should have been "stated" in the first line of my above post and not "started" as was the post.

Anniebach
Maybe you should look at this:
architectsforsocialhousing.wordpress.com/2018/03/29/the-social-realism-of-the-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-and-the-socialism-of-fools/

As i started in my above post, I believe the source of the problem in the Labour party lays within the sheer size of the party and its alined broader movement. In that, as with any large organisation, there will always be individuals who wish to "stand out" from all others and gain a reputation, or with some "notoriety."

In the above, some who gain a reputation for such things as public speaking or good analysis of any situation move up the movement ladder whether that be through the Labour party or the trade unions, or as with the likes of Jenny Formby by a combination of both.

However, there are those in the movement that may realise that they do not possess the above talents and therefore chose notoriety gained by "being outrageous" in their words and actions. In that, such persons may not wish to see the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism and therefore make outrageous statements against all of Jewish origin as a method of gaining their desired notoriety.

As was stated earlier in this thread, there are undoubtedly also those who genuinely do not realise the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, for no one has ever decreed that a PhD was a requirement for a person to join any section of the Labour movement. In that, there are undoubtedly (in my opinion) those who condemn all of Jewish origin for the actions of the state of Isreal.

In the foregoing, and as stated, it is the size of the Labour Party and it's aligned broader movement which is the basis of the anti-Semitism problem in the Labour party. That problem has been ruthlessly placed in the fore of public attention by a Blairite faction in the parliamentary party that have never accepted the 2015 changes in the party structure or the democratic election of the present leadership.

For as Jenny Formby stated in her usual forthright manner to the NEC, "it is impossible to police what every person states in a movement of six and a half million people."

And that is the simple truth.

Yes..the same incidents are repeated over and over. I has the effect of suggesting it is ongoing, new & multiple.

This is the sort of daily disruption to life for ordinary citizens of Palestine that makes many anti- Zionist . These activities are rarely reported in British maimstream press. They are often verified by Jewish Voice for Peace.
www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181102-israel-settlers-dump-sewage-on-palestinian-school-in-qalqiliya/

I didn’t realise that was him PECS

Joelsnan sadly a reply I expected ,

www.timesofisrael.com/corbyn-regrets-defending-london-mural-he-now-says-is-anti-semitic/

Corbyn is no antisemite, but he displayed a lack of judgment and awareness that he – and it appears some members – need to address.

It was Segalov who was racially abused on a TV panel programme recently..he was basically called the " wrong type of Jew" by a non Jew. Nobody seemed to think there was a problem with that because nobody on the panel, nor the chair challenged what was said! I think what was actually being said is 'you are not a Zionist so you are not a proper Jew. '

I got a video communication today of an elderly Palestinian woman recalling how her father and grandfather were shot in front of her by Zionist forces when she was just 8 years old

The pictue is taken from my dad's family home on Mt Carmel in about 1946.

Anniebach
The Guardian article appears a bit far fetched to assume the graphics content is anti Semitic. The image has been around for decades and was used to demonstrate the greed of the elite (Freemasons and others) at the expense of the poor working class. Capitalism at its finest. Knowing this I cannot see any anti Semitic message within, however I suppose that the writer has to make a point and does so by referring to the shape of the ‘capitalists’ noses.

To be honest I skipped past that to read the article in the link you posted which was by Mike Segalov.

I think it’s fair to say that Corbyn was embroiled in row after conceding he was wrong to support a graffiti artist whose “offensive” work was scrubbed off a wall in London’s East End in 2012 - nearly seven years ago. Is that the same wall you are talking about.,

The wall mural is in the link, I hope you are not going to say you didn’t see it.

I have no idea who wrote the article

I’ve never seen the wall mural. And as I’ve answered your question Annie could you please return the favour and answer mine?

Anja, I tried to put the wall mural on without the writing, it wouldn’t work.

I wanted to put only the mural on in the hope some would give their opinion on it, you choose to ignore the wall mural , why?

POGS
Can you please explain why you consider my statement wrong. I am very interested to understand how and why there is anti semetism and how this is manifested.

Is that article by the same Segalov who last September Segalov wrote: “As a Jewish Labour member, I'm sick of antisemitism being used as a political weapon against Jeremy Corbyn”.

He went on:

“It’s the left, and Corbyn’s supporters, who’ve put their bodies on the line time and time again to protect us from these racist organisations.

Joelsnan

' I would suggest the issue within the Labour Party is actually anti zionism and not anti semitism am I wrong?

Yes.