Are those condeming the Labour Party confusing Anti Zionism with Anti Semetism

Yes POGS, the following may be of interest

Jon Lansman 2018 speaking of Jewish Voice for Labour

‘The most influential antisemetim-deniers, unfortunately, are Jewish anti Zionists and the organisation which is just not tiny but has no real connection with the Jewish community at all. It doesn’t represent the Jewish community in the way that the JEWISH LABOUR MOVEMENT clearly does ‘

Anniebach

If it was Jenny Manson then I don't have to watch the Channel 4 interview as I know her opinion and the Jewish Voice for Labour. No antisemitism issues and it is all a conspiracy to get Corbyn !

The Jewish Voice for Labour was formed because of Corbyn becoming Labour Leader and I think I am correct in saying John McDonnell and Momentum are / were putting her forward as a Labour MP.

OK.

I got it wrong , sorry AB

Actually isn't she Jenny Manson?

Jenny Manson was the only woman who spoke about anti semetism on Channel4 News 7th March , it was on 7pm to
8pm and Anja said she had just listened to her I assumed it was Jenny Manson

Anniebach

I have watched and read Jenny Masons opinions, I think she has been mentioned on GN over time. As you rightly point out she is not a Labour MP.

Anja

Out of fairness to you, was it Jenny Mason you were speaking of being interviewed on Channel 4 ?

And she is chair for Jewish Voice for Labour , she omitted to say Jewish Voice for Labour held meetings this week to discuss withdrawing their support, they will hold a vote at their AGM,I think May, and have said they want action against anti semetism by that time

Jenny Manson , she is a secular Jew and not an MP

Anja

Anja Fri 08-Mar-19 15:26:57

"POGs I can tell by your tone that you don’t believe me. But though I can’t remember her name, perhaps another will."
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Oh dear. Why the hell would I be calling you a liar?

I asked for her name because you made a statement about a Labour MP that I, maybe other posters, would like to hear and make an opinion on.

Perhaps you will remember her name or look up the few Jewish Labour MP's and tell us.

She was expressing the same opinions as THESE Jewish Labour Supporters

POGs I can tell by your tone that you don’t believe me. But though I can’t remember her name, perhaps another will.

She was a Labour MP. Affiliate to a Jewish group. She had short grey hair, well cut and (at the risk of sounding anti-Semitic) didn’t ‘look’ Jewish.

Sorry that’s all I can say.

Eloethan

"The only conclusion is that there is now no serious force within the Conservative Party, which has been in government now since 2010, to act as a voice for the Palestinians............. "
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Actually I came across the CMEC after watching a debate in Parliament years ago and I had never heard of it so I looked it up.

I am not espousing great knowledge of the working behind the CMEC but I am trying to point out that whilst the Conservative Party does not have a Conservative Friends of Palestine ( or indeed Friends of many countries) the voices that are making an issue of that fact and eluding to the Conservatives have ' no interest ' because of not having a Friends of Palestine group are being a tad simplistic.

I am not stupid and understand the complexities of the politics of the Middle East are a mixed bag but I also believe the complexities do not only belong to just one party.

I would like to mention Conservative MP Alan Duncan who at one time was reported as being a ' target ' by Israel over his view on Palestine. As a member of the CMEC he wrote this in 2016:-

www.palestinecampaign.org/sir-alan-duncan-israels-settlements/

Sir Alan Duncan on Israel’s illegal settlements

Alan DuncanCMECinternational lawsettlements

The Conservative Middle East Council have produced a new pamphlet, Middle East Peace: the principles behind the process, by Sir Alan Duncan.

The pamphlet focuses on the inaction by the international community against Israel’s illegal settlement colonies. As Sir Alan points out,

“It is not just the physical constructions themselves that matter. Building them has a much wider detrimental impact on Palestinians. Their construction is often accompanied by the displacement of Palestinians from their historic farmland, the demolition of their homes, the bulldozing of their ancient olive groves, and the destruction of their water wells.

Rightful Palestinian citizens are reduced to having nothing: while illegal Israeli colonisers get everything. Water, electricity, access, protection: illegal settlers get the lot, the Palestinians next to nothing.

Settlement activity is not carried out by some minority group outside the orbit of the Israeli state. Settlement activity is systematically initiated, implemented and supported by the Israeli Government, who authorise, implement and protect the relentless illegal expansion of the borders of Israel. This is reprehensible.

In addition to being illegal, settlement activity is very often violent, nasty, and brutal. Not all, but many settlers are heavily armed and aggressive.

It is no exaggeration to say that many settlers are state-supported militia, defying international law, driving out the rightful inhabitants from their land, and creating an illegal economy at the expense of those who have been cruelly displaced.”
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The CMEC may not as be pro active on the Palestine/Israeli conflict as the Labour Party and as you have noted the site is down at present to find much out but I shall be trying to find more information for my own understanding.

More denial,

it’s a plot from the evil centre left to rid the party of the present leader.

Anja

Anja Thu 07-Mar-19 20:17:27
"Just listened to a Jewish MP on Channel 4 saying there is no more anti-semitism in the Labour Party than anywhere else and this is al whipped up by those who don’t like Corbyn. Easy to believe as we see the same here on every political thread.

Ad nauseum"
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Interesting.

Can you tell us who the Jewish MP was and from which party please.

POGS I had never even heard of the Conservative Middle East Council ("CMEC"). I wonder how many people have, apart from MPs, their aides and party officials.

The CMEC website has a message "under maintenance". However, other sites quote, as you did, "It [the CMEC] "is an organisation which exists to ensure Conservative MPs and peers understand the Middle East".

It appears that at one time the CMEC did have a significant focus on the Israel/Palestine issue and was seen, to some extent, as a counter-balance to the very powerful Friends of Israel Group.

However, in a 2018 article in Middle East Eye, Peter Oborne and Alastair Sim, both highly respected journalists, wrote an article entitled:

"Why is the Conservative Party ignoring Palestine?"

It is a long article containing a great deal of detailed information as to the make up of the CMEC, its current focus and, very significantly, its donors. For those who are interested but don't wish to read the full article, here are a some salient extracts from that article (the emphases are mine].

START QUOTE
Ask any Conservative MP and they will tell you that the nearest equivalent [to the Conservative Friends of Israel] is a group called the Conservative Middle East Council ..........

Yet despite its origins backing the cause of Palestine, there is compelling evidence that CMEC lobbies primarily on behalf of Gulf states - notably Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Bahrain - while also receiving money and attention from those close to these governments...........

Meanwhile the Palestinians have slipped down CMEC’s agenda. One senior and well-connected Tory politician told MEE that CMEC now “ignores the Palestinian issue” and called on it to “up its game”............

We have discovered that CMEC has not taken a single Tory MP to the occupied West Bank or to Gaza for at least five years. By contrast, the Conservative Friends of Israel has taken 119 Tories to Israel since the 2015 election alone.

It’s an extraordinary dereliction by an organisation which is supposed to support Palestinians.........

Perhaps the most generous CMEC donor has been the property developer and financier David Rowland. A regular donor to the Conservative Party, he has given more than £465,000 ($660,000) towards CMEC’s running costs, including £60,000 ($85,000) in October 2017...............
Rowland has also helped to secure multi-billion pound defence deals between British firms and the Saudi Arabian government. In 2011, Rowland offered his private jets to Prince Andrew for free, while the British royal visited Saudi Arabia to help secure deals for BAE Systems............

The only conclusion is that there is now no serious force within the Conservative Party, which has been in government now since 2010, to act as a voice for the Palestinians............. "

END QUOTE

Just listened to a Jewish MP on Channel 4 saying there is no more anti-semitism in the Labour Party than anywhere else and this is al whipped up by those who don’t like Corbyn. Easy to believe as we see the same here on every political thread.

Ad nauseum

Listening to Margaret Hodge yesterday saying that anti-Zionism was the same as anti-semitism I get the feeling that this is indeed being ‘used’ by these pro Israel Jewish MPs.

These British MPs loyalties are to Israel and they cannot see beyond that. Very odd state of affairs.

Accepting doesn’t mean agreeing

As I've said before, there's a long thread on here somewhere about the definition of anti- semitism. Which Corbyn eventually accepted on behalf of the LP: www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Today about 40 Jewish groups around the world publicised that they do not equate anti-Zionism with being anti-Semitic.

Eloethan

' That is not to say that I have never heard anyone strongly criticise Israel's actions - I have done so myself. Why should I not? I'm extremely critical of the rulers of Saudi Arabia and the government of Pakistan but that doesn't make me Islamophobic.'
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That is true.

Believing the Israeli government is wrong to illegally expand occupied territories is not being antisemitic is it? It is stating a fact or opinion.

Posters keep repeating the fact not one poster has said anything other.

It is antisemitic to attack a Jewish person, the Jewish race as a generalisation. It is antisemitic to refuse to share a platform with somebody just because they are Jewish etc.

Conservative Middle East Council

CMEC exists to ensure that conservative MPs and Peers understand the Middle East.

By bringing Conservative parliamentarians together with leading experts, CMEC promotes the discussion of UK foreign policy in the Middle East, and seeks to ensure that this policy in grounded in a deep understanding of the complexities of the region.

It might not be a ' Friends of ' group but it is a linked group to the Conservative Party.

If you want a government that doesn't align itself with either Israel or Palestine then this Conservative government is absolutely not for you. 80% of Conservative MPs belong to the Friends of Israel group - as I've said before, there is no Conservative Friends of Palestine group.

At least the Labour and the Lib Dem parties contain groups for both Friends of Israel and Friends of Palestine.

There are some stupid and unpleasant people in all parties. If there are holocaust deniers in any of those parties they are a very small minority who most people have not time for. In my 68 years, I have never in my personal experience, heard anybody denying that the holocaust happened. Neither, in my personal experience, have I heard anyone being racist about Jewish people - other than seeing footage on TV of football supporters singing inane and offensive songs, which target both Muslim and Jewish people. That is not to say that I have never heard anyone strongly criticise Israel's actions - I have done so myself. Why should I not? I'm extremely critical of the rulers of Saudi Arabia and the government of Pakistan but that doesn't make me Islamophobic.

As for terrorists, it is not just "terrorist groups" who terrorise. States can terrorise too - as was seen in Chile and South Africa. Yet these nations were supported by some western governments, including our own. But when the terrorising is done by our supposed "friends", every effort is made to maintain a low profile. It was only when ordinary people - then often described as "rabble rousers", "communists", etc. etc. - came together to campaign and protest (often being arrested for acts of "civil disobedience") and the tyranny of these governments became more widely understood, that governments had to change their tune. Thatcher and other Conservative MPs described Pinochet as a "friend" and Mandela as a "terrorist" but why were those that terrorised him and all non-white people not described in the same way?

As for Israel, the UN High Commission Inquiry recently reported, re the recent Gaza demonstration:

" More than 6,000 unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers, week after week at the protest sites by the separation fence. ..

... “There can be no justification for killing and injuring journalists, medics, and persons who pose no imminent threat of death or serious injury to those around them. Particularly alarming is the targeting of children and persons with disabilities,”

....“Many young persons’ lives have been altered forever. 122 people have had a limb amputated since 30 March last year. Twenty of these amputees are children.”

.."The Commission took note of the Israeli claim that the protests by the separation fence masked “terror activities” by Palestinian armed groups. The Commission found however that the demonstrations were civilian in nature, with clearly stated political aims."

PECS

" But maybe not open minded or politically astute enough to know that it is politically more expedient for many politicians to be aligned to Israel rather than support humanitarian needs in Palestine. "
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I am politically astute enough to understand that politicians such as Corbyn /McDonnell/Abbott et al are aligned to Palestine.

I want a government that does not align itself to either Israel or Palestine . I want a government that is prepared to speak to ' both parties ' and most certainly I do not want a government that aligns with Holocaust Deniers and Terrorist Groups such as Hamas.

What does an MP gain by being aligned to Israel?

PECS your contributions to discussing these issues have been welcome thankyou