Scottish Independence

and I totally agree Grammaretto - which is why I voted remain- and would have voted against Independence for Scotland last time if I had the chance.

But I can totally see NOW, how Scotland would be happier together as part of Europe- than floating adrift with Leave UK- and why many would NOW vote for Independence, who would never have before.

I didn't vote for independence and did vote to remain in the EU.
So I was relieved not to be in thrall to the nationalists but wish there had been no referendum over Europe.
I wanted reform but certainly don't want to exchange our relationship with our EU neighbours for some dodgy trading with US and China.
Why did I not want an independent Scotland?
I believe we should be supporting eachother, not selfishly saying OUR oil, fish, water etc.
We are stronger and better together.

Gillybob I'm quite shocked by your "SNP thugs" we have marched in tens of thousands over the past few years and there has to my certain knowledge NEVER been trouble in any of the marches,might be loud ,lots of singing but NEVER trouble except from the folk who turn up to wave their Union flags and taunt us and indeed its usually them who end up in court ...especially the ones who burned our flag an dassualted young teenage girls the day after the referendum ...and that was AFTER they had won!! Police Scotland figures will prove that the people who march even the largest marches of 90 thousand or more have had no trouble and are good spirited .The myth that we are thugs needs to be addressed.In my friend group we have doctors and lawyers and teachers and nurses people who are life long ...50 years and longer...supporters on Indy and brand new English born supporters of Indy .Its not all "thugs" by any means .Labelling us as such does you no favour whatsoever

I think MPs representing Scotland are very well represented in Westminster. 59- 650.
As the population of Scotland is, according to the last census in 2011, 5.3m and England 53m the numbers are a clear indication that the ratios are fair.

Is Ms Sturgeon popular?

jangran you meanthe nurses who got 9% pay rise, and the reintroduction of brseries,the police who got a similar rise and the teachers who just accepted 13 % over two years ? Far better off under the SNP than anyone else in the UK "WEE" Nicola is a very capable well respected leader of the SNP WORLDWIDE ,I hear from friends in Cnada and the USA and even from Spain they wished they had someone who was on the peoples side the way she is instead of the folk at the top of their government .I truly do not understand ANY Scot who tinks it OK for our country to be run...and run badly by our neighbour .

Just popped back to read more posts. Thank you, this is very interesting. Arguments both sides have merit, as would be expected. Granny23 you have taken such time to explain how you feel which is great. It is a topic I find of interest since I joined GN as the discussion would pop up now & again.

Chucky have you got a nice lodge in the Trossachs perhaps?

Chucky, I agree with everything you have said, and it's time that wee Nicola attended to the job she's paid to do.Ask the nurses, the teachers,the police,the carers,the patients,, the road users etc how happy they are!

Meant to say Framilode or jura2 if that scenario came about perhaps we could look at a property swap, if you wanted to live in Scotland?
It would break my heart to leave Scotland but, if this did happen, I would consider moving!

No one is ignoring the Result of Indy Ref 1 - Scotland is still a partner in the UK is it not?
Precisely,and therefore must democratically accept the result of the UK referendum!

No one is ignoring the Result of Indy Ref 1 - Scotland is still a partner in the UK is it not? Indy Ref 2 will be called because there has been a material change in circumstances in that if the UK Brexits from the EU, Scotland will be out of the EU too. Yet voters in Scotland, having voted to stay in the UK, in many cases because leaving the UK would also mean being out of Europe, now find that because the majority of voters in England voted to leave the EU (whereas 62% of voters in Scotland voted to Remain) that Scotland will be out against the expressed will of Scottish voters. Now where lies the democracy? Was the Indy ref undemocratic? Was the Brexit ref undemocratic? or is our particular form of Democracy seriously flawed?

I have to agree about democracy Chucky if we ignore the results(s) why bother in the future?

Well said Chucky! I agree with you 100%

Oh, and meant to say Nicola (Sturgeon) if there was another Scottish independence vote and it was to leave the UK, I presume that there would be a further referendum a few years down the line, to see if we had changed our minds again or not!!

There should not be either another EU or Scottish independence referendum.
I voted Remain in both and, as part of a country which is supposed to be democratic, I expect the results to be adhered to, whether it was what I voted for or not. Not getting your own way is not a reason for ignoring a democratic vote!!
What I really cannot understand is why anyone in Scotland would wish to become INDEPENDENT from the rest of the UK, whilst wishing to be DEPENDENT on Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria and the rest of the eu countries!!!! Does anyone in Scotland seriously believe that these countries really have the good of Scotland at heart, more than our British family?? I certainly don’t!
The time has come to believe in democracy and put both debates to bed. We should be a “UNITED KINGDOM” independent from the EU.
Anything else makes any future votes pointless and means that if you don’t get your own way keep trying till you do and to hell with DEMOCRACY.

Yes Urmstongran, Northern Ireland was yet another problem that the leave leaders failed to point out during the referendum campaign. It was just the same as they did not notice that the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties would bring a nonsense to the statement by David Davis that "these will be the easiest negotiations ever concluded."

What a joke.

But how could we have taken it seriously ‘before’ MaizieD when it was never pointed out to us at the time?

Oh god, so sorry to you both! I must pay better attention.
?

As I asked before, does anyone in NI think the Remain vote there will mean a push for independence or is the DUP too strong?

I'm not sure anyone could make a judgement on that. The problem is that the excellent fudge that is the Good Friday Agreement suits most of Ireland very well. I think they'd've been very happy to continue it.

Now the Brexit vote has forced polarisation of positions again. The DUP certainly doesn't speak for the whole of NI. Don't forget those Sin Fein MPs who don't take their seats.

Nice to see that Leavers are taking Ireland seriously after they've opened the can of worms

I think it was Ellenvannin who said that (10.29 this morning) not me, Urmstongran . It’s easy to get confused on these forums sometimes though.

Sorry gillybob I am confused too as I know you are 57y yet:

My D and SiL are doing a tour on their break from Oz in June. I quietly wonder if they're property-hunting while they're there being in their late 50's

How would this be possible? Sorry if I seem pedantic I just don’t know to which family members you refer?

Erm, I don’t have a brother Urmstongran so I’m a little bit

gillybob do you mean your brother and sister in law here?

Regarding another Scottish referendum, Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard said last weekend that a UK Labour government would not authorise a second referendum on Scottish independence, despite Nicola Sturgeon indicating she plans to hold one. Does this influence anything?

As I asked before, does anyone in NI think the Remain vote there will mean a push for independence or is the DUP too strong?

If Scotland wishes independence from the the UK, that's absolutely fine and I'm sure that Westminster wouldn't dream of standing in their way, and, unlike the EU , not put so many obstacles in the way, making it virtually impossible! What I can't understand is why Scotland, wanting independence and all that word means, immediately wants to put itself in thrall to the EU?!! ie, Germany and its hanger on, France?!! As for the UK's voice being adhered to?!! I don't think there has been one occasion in the last 40 years that any country has taken much notice of anything we've had to say. In the eyes of the other compliant nations, we're just trouble makers that they will probably be glad to see the back of!!