Scottish Independence

In a way, where I live is in a similar situation - the French speaking part of Switzerland - with a very different culture, not just the language- French/Latin oriented, whereas the German speaking part is, well, Germanic oriented.

A large and substantial minority. This is exarcerbated in a Direct Democracy where many very important decisions are made by vote and referendum- and where the FRench speaking side, usually with the help of Basel and sometimes some Italian speaking areas - are practically always pipped to the post and our will ignored.

The French speaking side would have joined the EU, for instance- and vote much more to the left of centre and for more open social structures.

Paddyann - I strongly feel we should remain in the EU as we are stronger together- and I used to feel it was important for the UK to remain united. As said, I'd totally understand how the Scotts could and would change my mind in the current circumstances.

And I understand it too, as my family originates from a part of Switzerland, French-speaking, Catholic, that was just 'given', without any vote or participation in the decision- to the Canton of Bern - and was invaded by the Bernese, who imposed the German language in all institutions and schools- kids beaten if they spoke their native FRench- and the Protestant religion imposed too. 2 centuries later - the resentment is still festering and affecting the region strongly.

Scotland is a part of the UK and a very small part of it at that.

they all seem to believe that we are scroungers who take from the English taxpayer and give nothing in return?
Oh, for goodness' sake!

And why you think its normal or OK for one country to rule another ...against their will?
And oh, for goodness' sake again
You could say that because someone votes Lib Dem, Green, Plaid etc that they are being ruled against their will.

We live in a democracy, one person one vote. The SNP does, in fact, have a higher proportion of representatives in the UK Parliament than other parties who received a lot of votes but no seats to show for it.

Losing patience with it now because these arguments have no logic.

Jura2 maybe you could explain WHY you think we're "stronger together"? Its something that has puzzled me for a very long time,why do people south of the border think England is better with Scotland as part of the UK given that they all seem to believe that we are scroungers who take from the English taxpayer and give nothing in return ?
And why you think its normal or OK for one country to rule another ...against their will? That last statement being the fact that Scotland hasn't voted the tories into power since the mid 1950's yet we get landed with them on a regular basis because England voted them in .

As said, I have never lived in Scotland, nor spent a lot of time there- so NOT 'au fait' with the ins and outs for sure.

All I said was, in short- alwyays been a unionist as we are stronger together- but the Scottish vote and wishes in the Ref. being absolutely and totally ignored may well push many Scots towards Independence.

Nicola's speech at the march yesterday was a massive success - and she earned a lot of respect through it- from those there from all over the UK- and expeically the young.

Oh and I agree about the high heels, except that Nicola (and Theresa ) do seem to be able to manage them, unlike TV presenters who need escorts holding their hands to get into and out of position.

Absolutely fine with that sort of comment Jalima. That's not what I'm objecting to, of course

Beat me to it Granny 23!
Bottom lone is that as far as I can see my whole family and I are happier and more satisfied with public services than we'd ever be South of the border.
Gp's and hospital services, education, taxation?
Here yes but there, no!

Up to now, as far as I am aware, Gransnetters have managed to avoid the kind of trite personal comment on Nicola Sturgeon's looks which so fascinate people on other platforms including the BBC
Shall I be trite?
She always looks well turned out, smart and neat and her hair always looks good (which must take some doing because it looks 'difficult' rather like mine).
However, I do wonder how she manages to get through a working day in those high heels.

Beat me to it Jane10
“Sturgeon has to make daft concessions to the tiny Green party in order to get anything passed.” Wasn’t this discussed when Jura brought up about wee nic criticising the handful of DUP’s in Westminster, when she is doing the exact same in Scotland with the handful of Greens?
Who said the “awful Scottish Parliament”?
Granny23 I agree that the First Minister of Scotland is entitled to speak for her Country. However I have 3 issues here...
1) her country voted against Independence, and I do expect you to say that things have changed since then, BUT things change from the day after an election!!
2) the number of seats won by the SNP has went down, in both Holyrood and Westminster, since the Independence referendum, indidating a move away from the SNP!
3) her apparent inability to see past Scottish Independence and Brexit, mean that Scotland is suffering in other ways. As already said If she put as much energy, money and time into her duties in Scotland, health, education and other essential services would perhaps be in a better situation.

Any government in power as long as the SNP have been runs into problems with some of their natural supporters disliking policies. This does not change the fact that some of the policies have greatly improved our lives or those of our families.

In my wider family there are people who would not be alive today if they'd had to choose between paying for prescriptions and other essentials while very ill; there are teachers who would not have managed to afford four years of university without the waiver of tuition fees; there are at least two young working couples on very low wages for whom the baby box was an essential for basic items they might not have thought of or been able to afford; those same young adults are very proud of our record on green and renewable energy which is far ahead of the rest of the UK. It matters to them.

There are many things that I and others think the SNP have got wrong as most political parties do in the end ... but they have been far more active and socially-just than ever the Labour/LibDem coalition was in its two terms at the helm in Scotland.

Nothing is perfect, but to say the SNP only stand for independence does them a great disfavour...as does demonising Nicola Sturgeon in a way that would be disallowed on open platforms if it was directed at the Prime Minister, Anna Soubry or Yvette Cooper to name three at ramdom.

Up to now, as far as I am aware, Gransnetters have managed to avoid the kind of trite personal comment on Nicola Sturgeon's looks which so fascinate people on other platforms including the BBC. To repeat what's been said in the thread would just add to it, but be warned it is not acceptable in this day and age and none of us would like it for ourselves or our daughters.

Nicola Sturgeon has done a very good job as First Minister of Scotland and is currently having to balance understandable calls from the more militant parts of the party to capitalise on the embarrassing mess of the Tory infighting (and Labour inaction) with a genuine desire to protect our country from being dragged down into a situation much worse than the current set-up.

At times, the SNP have felt like the only adults in the party leadership room recently and dissing the First Minister of Scotland is a desperate measure ranking with stirring up hatred of MPs and the Speaker of the House of Commons at a time of national crisis.

And on a graph of mistakes, I doubt Nicola would rank as a tiny fraction against the thickset lines for Theresa and Jeremy.

Empty pots?...

Nicola Sturgeon is First Minister of Scotland and is thereforeas entitled to speak for her country as any other Head of State

She is First Minister of the Scottish Parliament. She is NOT Head of State.
The Head of State is HM the Queen.

However, wee Nicola certainly puts herself on a pedestal and makes her voice heard above that of any PM or Head of State (apart from, possibly, Trump).

Sturgeon has to make daft concessions to the tiny Green party in order to get anything passed.
SNP activists occupy an echo chamber of agreement via twitter and Facebook etc so just don't hear what non SNP fans/ordinary people actually think about independence.
jura re your Scottish friends in Switzerland, I find just travelling on public transport and eavesdropping in shops amply confirms that SNP govt is very unpopular indeed.

Sorry FPTP

Chucky said "Being honest, I can never get over how amazing it is (not just in this, but politics as a whole) that the politicians can always manage to find the statistics to spout to back their case!!"

What is amazing is that the Unionists among us, either can't be bothered to look, or can't find, statistics to back up their claims about Scotland's massive debts, Police numbers, average wages, etc. Occasionally they will quote something through the prism of the Unionist Press but seldom do they seek out the source and actual figures behind the headlines.

As to the 'awful' Scottish Parliament, elected under PR rules such that the number of MSPs for each party more accurately represents the number of votes cast than FPT ,remember that the SNP does not have a majority of seats. In order to pass any legislation there has to be support from one or more other parties or individuals. All it would take to defeat SNP proposals is for all of the other MSPs to vote against. Nicola Sturgeon IS First Minister of Scotland and is therefore as entitled to speak for her Country as any other head of state. If people in Scotland revile her and her Party as much as you say then why does she and her party continue to win more seats and a greater share of the votes than any other?

jura2 “But you chose to mix the two 'so really what has Scotland gaining independence matter to you, or Brexit for that matter.”
I live in Scotland (and the UK) therefore both matter a lot to me! I am not squirrelled away in Switzerland, with my only worry how votes, by those who live in and support this country, will affect my pension! You say Nicola had great success yesterday! Of course she did, one thing she is really good at, is opening that big mouth of hers!

paddyann I agree with jane10 “I'm sure you really believe all the stuff that you spout but, alas for you, there is another side to all this, the side where Scotland is subsidised and financially underwritten by the UK.”
Yep, Paddyann, you are like everyone else, who twist facts and figures to suit themselves!!
Being honest, I can never get over how amazing it is (not just in this, but politics as a whole) that the politicians can always manage to find the statistics to spout to back their case!!

All this shouting for another referendum (in both cases) only causes more divisions in the country and costs millions of pounds which could be spent much better on education and health. When will the SNP realise that the Scottish people do not want independence?? What they want is for wee nic and her cronies to concentrate her energies on health, education and other essential services in Scotland. If she put as much time and energy ( into those as she does Independence, Scotland would be in a much better situation! She can shout as much as she likes, but she does not speak for the majority of Scottish people!

Of course wee Nicola was well received at the march in London. She was only saying what the crowd wanted to hear. Grandstanding as usual!
there is nothing on their agenda except independence. The proof of that is in our schools, hospitals, police service, roads ..
Now we'll get another rant about salary increases, etc facts and figures to suit that agenda, but we on the ground know better!
Be in no doubt, wee Nicola, and the rest of the SNP, can wave our flag around all they want,but they do not speak for Scotland

If you want Scotland to have their independence, include England in the vote next time!

But why are those in Switzerland sick of the Labour and the Conservatives

Good question Jalima.

the ones I know live in UK, France and Switzerland.
They all escaped as well then!!
But why are those in Switzerland sick of the Labour and the Conservatives? Does it affect them at all?

Obviously this affects my Scottish friends in England and Wales but those living overseas would not be concerned.

I echo everything Jane10 has said. But she is wasting her energy in trying to refute anything said by SNP supporters - there is nothing on their agenda except independence. The proof of that is in our schools, hospitals, police service, roads ... Nicola Sturgeon certainly talks the talk but she does not walk the walk and is reviled, Jura, by many who actually live here in Scotland ...

the ones I know live in UK, France and Switzerland.

They are all sick of Labour and Conservatives. Coincidence- yes. But we do tend to meet and talk to those with similar pov- I suppose.

My next door neighbours are both from Lanarkshire and they detest NS and all that she has done so far in her tenure. They have both said that she has caused as much division in Scotland as Cameron has done in the rest of the UK.

They actually refer to her as Wee Nicky Kranky.

Interesting!
The ones I know live in England and Wales, and some are in Canada.
Not entitled to vote, obviously.