Scottish Independence

I thought you lived abroad and had abandoned this country?

Well, you know what thought thought, don't you?

since when did democracy mean ignoring a legal referendum result

Has it completely passed you by, Chuckie that the referendum result is badly tainted by illegality and cheating (not to mention Russian interference). Even the Prime Minister admitted that through her Attorney General in court. Had been mandatory rather than advisory it could have been declared void.

Do you think that cheating and law breaking is an acceptable way to run a democratic vote?

varian since when did democracy mean ignoring a legal referendum result??? Or is your type of democracy ignoring the votes of those who disagree with you? If you ignore a democratic decision, because you want a different, supposedly democratic result, I’m afraid that isn’t actually democracy! Do you need a further explanation of what it is? You are ignoring the fact that millions of people in this country made this democratic decision, which irrespective of whether you like it or not, must be upheld. I voted Remain, but guess what, I accept the legal result of the referendum and as far as I am concerned now, we can’t leave quick enough, even if it’s a “no deal” which would be preferable to a soft Brexit!

jura2 You and varian should get together, 2 individuals who think that there is only one type of democracy, their opinion, and f**k everyone who doesn’t share it!
Who exactly is the we who could revoke article 50? Perhaps you are overestimating the importance of Sunday’s demonstration. Noise does not destroy democracy, no matter how hard you try! Parliament is the only place where article 50 could be revoked, not by a noisy bunch of demonstrators who think that their opinion is the only one that matters!

By the way Jura, did you vote in the Scottish Independence and Brexit referendums? I thought you lived abroad and had abandoned this country?

If the residents of Scotland think it's right and proper for them to have autonomy, why is deemed improper for residents of England to enjoy that right?

paddyann wrote:
...
Its not extreme to believe in your own people running your own country...for goodness sake its what most of the world do.

* should read stop saying.

Can you stop Police, teachers, nurses etc as examples of poorly paid workers. They could and can opt out working for peanuts if they're not happy, as can any one else whose job doesn't pay them what they think they deserve.
Train to be a train driver...anything, just stop bleating about it. It's always the same jobs that get cited year after year.

or we could revoke article 50, remain- and explain clearly, with all the evidence to hand- why this is the best option, and why the Ref was fraudulent in so many ways. Very much an option- and a very democratic one too.

I've already made my 'people's vote'. It was to remain but I respect democracy so just wish we could just get on and leave EU. This constant uncertainty is more damaging than taking the deal and problem solving after that.

If you believe in democracy suppodf a People's vote.

varian you don’t seem to believe in democracy? I do.
As I have previously said, I voted to remain as part of the EU. I was pretty gutted at the result but as part of a country which is supposed to be democratic, I expect the results to be adhered to, whether it was what I voted for or not.
I also voted to remain part of the UK and again expect that democratic result to be upheld.
We should be a “UNITED KINGDOM” independent from the EU. Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK. The UK then voted to leave the EU! There was then a General Election! Both the Scottish Conservative and Labour candidates had a significant increase in the number of the electorate voting for their party, while the SNP vote drastically reduced (figures in a previous post).Does that suggest that the Scottish people want to leave the UK? No it doesn’t. It shows that they wish to remain as part of a United Kingdom!
Anything else is undemocratic and risks the the very foundation that democracy is built on.
With regard to Brexit, it is disgusting that MPs are failing to represent their constituents! I am sure that in the next General Election many will suffer the consequences of putting their wishes ahead of those who elected them to power.

You have got it so wrong Chucky . The best hope for our country (and I speak as someone who identifies as Scottish, British and European) is for parliament to Revoke Article 50 so thew UK remains in the EU.

This could happen at any time before we leave and it would be best if it happened this month, before 29th March. If you agree join us in London on Saturday.

www.peoples-vote.uk/

Jane10 I’m with you on Scotland remaining part of the UK. It would be disastrous if we left. However I do have confidence that this will not happen. If there were another referendum I think that the majority for remaining in the UK would increase and, god forbid, in the (very) remote possibility that the “Leavers” won, there would be so many issues thrown up that the current problems with leaving the EU, would pale in significance and there would be years of unrest, which would be disastrous for Scotland.
The situation regarding Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland has been impossible to negotiate and is probably the main reason that there has been no Brexit agreement. At the moment, the border is currently rendered invisible by the Good Friday Agreement, which means there is free passage between the 2 countries and no passports are required to cross it. However when the UK leaves the EU this border becomes an external EU border. However far the UK diverges, Ireland will have no choice but to "police" the border; indeed it will be legally obliged to do so by the EU.
Think then of a Scotland / England border. If Scotland wanted to rejoin the EU, this border would also become an external EU border and subject to the same issues as Ireland! Scotland would be required to police this border! What about those who live in Scotland, but work in England and vice versa! Would they require passports? Would there be different currencies, or would Scotland have to adopt the euro as a condition on being accepted back into the EU. That is IF they let us back in.
I voted Remain in both referendums, a United Kingdom, in the EU. paddyann and Granny23 seem to think that my vote (and others who voted the same) would automatically mean that the vote to remain in the EU means more than the vote to remain in the UK! Total bollocks, the vote to remain as part of the UK takes much greater precedence than that to remain in the EU.
As far as I am concerned now, the sooner we leave the UK the better, even if it were a “no deal.”

Julia9TC people in Iceland often work two jobs to keep themselves afloat financially . Independant Scotland under the SNP would be a disaster.

Scotland is certainly large enough in population to be independent if it wants. Look at Iceland, which a population less than one-tenth of the size of Scotland. Norway has a smaller population, also Ireland, Croatia, Latvia, Lithuania and many more.

I would 100 times rather stay in UK as you must have noticed by now!

That is my hope too Varian and given the current shambles anything is possible, though as there is no consensus around any idea and only 9 days to go, it seems ever more likely that we will crash out.

We've not left yet, Granny23 and some of us still hope that we never will.

Jane10 Well as it stands remaining in the UK = leaving the EU. For Scotland, leaving the UK = being able to remain in the EU. How do you choose?

In my view 'independence' from EU and UK is just plain daft. These are global dark times. United we stand, divided we fall has never been so important.

Over the years of watching. Listening and reading what the SNP and activists for Scottish Independence want I find to quite a degree it mirrors what/why some people voted to Leave the EU and gain Independence.

The rhetoric is so similar and if it were a ' principle' then why is it OK for one country but not another in the eyes of those stand on a ticket for Independence as a ' principle' for everybody ?

It appears to me ' some ' view Independence when it suits their agenda as an admirable aim but when it does not they do all they can to stop it.

Chucky As has been discussed/proven, over and over on Gransnet, The percentage of our laws promulgated via the EU is miniscule compared to the percentage emanating from Westminster. Further an Independent Scotland within the EU would have an equal vote and the same right of veto as any other Nation state.

This is so NOT the case with regard to Westminster, where even if all MPs representing Scottish seats vote together, 'speak with one voice' their voice is drowned by the 90% of the House of Commons who sit for non Scottish constituencies.

Further the Union with England was not entered into freely by the common people of Scotland (there was rioting in the streets) but rather by agreement by a handful of 'Toffs' who had their palms greased (remind you of the DUP?) although even they thought they were entering into an equal partnership rather than being subsumed by the larger entity.

Fast forward to the present and Scotland is no longer the poor relation in the so-called partnership, indeed it contributes more per head to the exchequer than ever comes back. With Scotland's vast natural resources and plenty of room for expansion it is little wonder that the UK Government is so determined to hold onto and control us. However times change and now the 'Big Money' the oligraphs who really run the country can see the advantages to their pockets of having an independent Scotland in the EU when the RUK leaves. They will therefore throw their money, power and influence via MSM behind a YES vote in a Scottish Independence referendum (as they did for NO in the last one) Not that I am saying this is a good thing, just stating that this is how it works nowadays.

Finally, 62% of voters in Scotland voted to remain in the EU - surpassing the 60% redline which should have been imposed on the referendum. Therefore it is the duty of the Scottish Government and Scottish MPs at Westminster to do all it can to ensure that the Nation stays in the EU.

Paddyann Granny23
I’ve given the facts and figures, so not re-hashing them just now.

“Definition of independent - free from outside control; not subject to another's authority, not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence

Does this sound like the SNP’s description of what an Independent Scotland would look like if they get their own way?? No, they want an Independent Scotland governed by the EU. That is NOT independence!

Well we are both correct Gilly Keilder Water is indeed the biggest ARTIFICIAL reservoir in the UK, but Loch ness is the biggest natural loch.

Amazing Loch Ness Facts - Eagle Brae
www.eaglebrae.co.uk/news/amazing-loch-ness-facts

"Loch Ness holds an estimated 263 billion cubic feet of water, which is more than all the water in all the lakes, rivers and reservoirs in the whole of England and Wales combined! Loch Ness’s deepest points are over 800ft deep which is twice the average depth of the North Sea."

I beg your pardon Granny23 Keilder water reservoir in Northumberland is the largest artificial lake in the U.K. by capacity of water. It holds 2 billion litres of water, so I think we will be okay thank you very much.

How do you think they get oil out of the ground now, Granny? They use fracking.