Scottish Independence

DEMOCRACY is in short supply here GG we haven't voted for a tory government since the mid 1950's yet we've been landed with them regualrly,our elected representatives are pilloried and denigrated and ignored every day .This is not democracy.There is a bull currently heading for the Lords to change the act of union so we have no right to another referendum ..that cant be right.We must have the right to to have a say in our own country .Devolution was a step in the right direction and it has in the main gone well ,with very limited powers...as you know power devolved is power retained .As leavers from the EU you should be able to understand that we dont want to give 85% of our laws rules etc to Westminster ..its in a foreign country ...after all you want to leave europe over just 5% of powers they have .Wasting my time ...here .Nothing any Nationalist says on GN is taken seriously .I'm out

It seems that the Scottish Tories are preparing for change too:

A CALL is being made to the Scottish Conservative conference next month urging it to split from the UK party and set up as a separate organisation.

It follows tensions between the UK and Scottish party over Brexit and the prospect a hardline Eurosceptic such as Boris Johnson could succeed Theresa May as Prime Minister. (from the National today)

Jane10 'This isn't collective browbeating or ganging up. It's just people disagreeing with another poster. That happens. We're not a 'gang' we don't know each other in real life we're just independently posting what we think.'

many Gneters do know each other in real life, many correspond by pms or other social media, and many meet up.

I have been totally honest about having never lived in Scotland- and that I have no real experience of the Scottish situtation. All I've said is that the Scots have been treated very badly during the Brexit campaign and post debates- ignored, and worse, shouted at and mocked- being told to go back to Scotland- and that this is likely to fuel new calls for Independence- and that I could not blame them if they did.

Re Tourism in Scotland, a tourist tax is a very good idea- and tightening up on bad landlords who make a killing on the Festival. And yet, again, Edinburgh is NOT Scotland, and probably very unrepresentative of feelings re a lot of things.

And yes, I do know a lot of Scots, in England, here in Switzerland and FRance and many other EU countries- and they come in very many guises and expertise, and wealth too.

The constant reply, and yes, it is bullying and ganging up- is 'what about Switzerland'. It is beyond contempt and bordering on bullying. On each and every thread. When I think about my 40 years in the UK, totally integrated, British since 73, with no outward sign of being 'foreign born' - I do wonder how others are treated

My part of Switzerland, the French speaking part, has voted to be part of the EU, but like Scotland, is a minority - always pipped at the post by their Germanic cousins, minus the lovely town of Basel, and sometimes the Italian part. Very little I can do about that. At least we have strong reciprocal arrangements, but I would very much prefer for us to be part of EU, and will continue to fight for this.

* who h woukd which would
There there

To a certain extent I agree with your argument for democracy, paddyann but how many times are we or, more pertinently, should we be allowed to change our minds?
If everyone who could then vote in 2016 (but didn't) and would now vote, was allowed a second bite of the cherry it would start a civil war...no doubt about it.
The miners strike would have nothing on that scenario and that's a sad state of affairs as is the NI v Ireland set up who h woukd end up in tears and a lot lot more.
I have no answers which would satisfy all sides. No-one wants to give ground but, in a tug o'war There is only one winner.
Some cases are won by default.
If the other side fails to turn up or fields a weak side thinking they'll romp home it can all end in tears as there can be no re-run.
Whatever your or my views or those of millions of others, what matters is keeping this country safe, prosperous democratic and peaceful, not this total mess in parliament and men and women (whatever their politics) sniping at each other.
My hope is that all of us can get a solution out of this chaos that gives each something we can work with, can build on and mould to our own lifestyles.
We're quite resilient, we women and should certainly speak our minds but with respect.
We all bring something of value to the table, if not knowledge, then kindness and empathy for those who are possibly not as 'hardy' as you or I.
The government will, in the end, lay down the result, the gauntlet and we will have the choice of picking it up and running with it or drowning in a flood of tears.
I hope you and I and everyone everywhere can be brave enough to make the best of the ensuing mess our disgusting elected principals will leave to us.

a vote made under false information is not a democratic vote...we were told the ONLY way to stay in the EU was to vote NO...I have family who voted no simply because of this ,they didn't think we would gain entry under our own steam.The circumstances have changed with Brexit and all those who voted NO ..that I know (personally) will vote yes next time .In ANY democracy the right to change your mind must be upheld.

Jane10 my standard response as an Edinburgh resident when interrogated by particularly demanding tourists (of which sadly there seemed to be so, so many) was to serenely respond "I'm sorry, but I don't speak English."

I think you can only endure one Festival as a resident before you develop a slight homicidal mania.

There has for many years been a practice of Edinburgh landlords evicting their tenants at the end of July to charge spectacular 'festival rents' to tourists for the duration of August. More than once I have made the forced march to new and less salubrious accommodation as a result myself

Maybe the tax on tourists should be confined to the Summer months and December/January
I must say today Edinburgh's New Town was looking spic and span.

I agree it can be horrible in August. It used to be that locals rented out their flats to visitors and went away for the duration. DS let his flat to a theatre company one year and went to S. America for a month..

paddyann
My idea of democracy is that all those eligible to vote are given the opportunity to excercise that right. Therefore when there is a referendum the resultant vote of the people must be upheld.
It is not a case of ignoring the result because you disagree with the result!
The people of Scotland comprehensively voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. The Voters across the United Kingdom then voted to leave the EU. That was the democratic wish of the people, therefore it must be upheld.
Just because you and I voted differently does not mean we can ignore this result.
I accept that vote I cast in the EU referendum was in the minority and expect that the result is upheld.
You don’t accept that the vote you cast was in the minority and don’t want that result to be upheld. That is not Democratic!

As an occasional visitor to Scotland in Spring and Autumn and Edinburgh and Stirling in particular at Hogmanay, I can honestly say that I don't recognise the descriptions of dirty, vomity streets or anything other than a wonderful welcome.
I have usually stayed in The Albany boutique hotel in Edinburgh but have occasionally stayed in AirBnBs when they have been the owner's place of residence and I must say that I and my companions have always had a fabulous time wherever I've been and whoever I have travelled with.
It's disappointing to read that my experiences are not those generally found, as regards Edinburgh.

gillybob there are certainly days when I wish we could just close the city! You're lucky you've not seen the overflowing bins and the streets running with sick and worse!
Just one example of general annoyance: a local hotel tends to attract large parties, they turn up at the bus stop 50 at a time. It takes forever for them to board, take up all the seats including disabled ones and then, as the bus is full, it whizzes past all the locals trying to get the bus to work. I overheard one puzzled tourist asking a lady why people were so unfriendly on the bus. She was very nice about it but explained that she'd missed a hospital visit as the previous 3 buses had been full of tourists and gone past her stop. I've lost track of the number of times I've been swiped by the huge backpacks they wear too.
These annoyances build and build. The AirBnB flats are an especial blight. Tourists are on holiday, don't care how much noise they make or mess on the stairs. Other residents are trying to sleep and keep their common entrances in good order but are stymied by the short term lets and nobody cares.

Seems to me that those who are just dying not to be part of the rest of the UK ( anti English feeling in other words) are buying in to emotional stuff ( Highlander, kilts, girls carrying lanterns etc) and yet.....they want to take rules and regulations from the EU.
It’s a nonsense.

The streets of Edinburgh have never looked filthy to me Jane10 . There does seem to be a problem with beggars though, who are obviously taking advantage of the tourists. Ditto Glasgow.

Maybe closing Edinburgh to tourists might be a solution

I can totally understand your concerns Jane10 but I'm not sure what a tourist tax will do to change anything? I have just googled it myself and it seems that the amounts are as yet undecided (they are talking about varying it depending on the size/price of the hotels) and it will effect many more places not just Edinburgh.

I know they introduced a tourist tax in the Balearics a few years ago but the hoteliers in Ibiza and Majorca are now campaigning for it to be scrapped as they are facing a tourism crisis and this additional cost to tourists is posing "a serious threat".

The other thing to consider is that tourists are a huge source of income to areas such as Edinburgh and Scotland will need to think very carefully before biting the hand that helps to feed it.

I typed a huge post about the tourist tax then previewed it and didn't press 'post'! Och. Bottom line re tourist tax is that it wont come in for several years, will be up to individual local authorities whether to impose it, mostly Edinburgh seems to be being ruined by overtourism, the tax will be £2 per night for a limited number of nights. It wont add anything to the economy but will only help to mop up some of the damage caused by the tourists.
People talk about tourism being wonderful for the economy but in Edinburgh the industry employs mostly hourly paid staff (often from EU) and the large chains of hotels and businesses are owned by multi nationals so the profits leave the country. Meanwhile Edinburgh is groaning under the weight of tourists. They pack out the buses making others late for work, Air BnB flats make life a misery for other residents and these short term lets mean that they are not available as long term homes for people who have to live and work here. The streets are packed and filthy especially in the old town and Princes Street.
Its a very sore point with me!!

there's always the whisky
liquid gold

and tourism would boom and boom

I thought Scotland had (or are about to) start a tourist tax?

This isn't collective browbeating or ganging up. It's just people disagreeing with another poster. That happens. We're not a 'gang' we don't know each other in real life we're just independently posting what we think.

I've heard about this but have not seen it til now. The ganging up. I see why people stop posting. And why people stop reading these threads.

I thought Urmstongran's original question was a fair and reasonable one. There have been many well-thought-out replies and points made on both sides in this thread.

We cannot possibly know who is posting here, or what their sphere of influence is or where they might be talking, reading, listening or discussing elsewhere.

Collective browbeating someone for a claim made here is very unattractive and adds a playground element I haven't experienced personally in 50 years or seen since my DGDs grew up.

Attempts to shut someone up or make them nervous about posting alternative views are counterproductive in the end. It's better to argue the case for and against the topic - as many people do here - without querying sources more than once.

If correcting another GNer's spelling is "not the done thing", then it should also apply to multiple querying of sources.

Actually I'm a bit surprised that jura2 isn't putting her energies into ensuring that Switzerland, where she lives, joins the EU!

jura seems to be everywhere and know everyone.
MI5 I shouldn’t wonder ( their best operative!)

I prefer the sensible offerings of Jane10 who actually lives in Scotland.

Is that your opinion; the "people in the EU that you talk to all the time", or the man on the 49 omnibus?

Jalima- those days are over. And it is possibly the whole reason for Brexit right from the start- the EU directives on tax avoidance.

Me too!