Public school

Another thing I'd like to know jura is how you know that the schools the children of your relatives go to are 'top' public schools? What criteria are you using?

anja, was that school a direct grant school? My husband's school was but he didn't qualify, being out of catchment The system was long gone by the time our children got there. Luckily, a couple of them won scholarships.

Oakham was also part of the system I believe, and, possibly, Uppingham.

At my selective independent school I was in the bottom set for maths, and it honestly didn’t bother me at all, certainly didn't make me feel a failure. I wasn't interested in maths.

I don’t think we had sets for anything else. Perhaps French, but I’d have been in the top one for that.

jura What you say about the brightest pupils being in the top streams for all subjects in a comprehensive surely defeats the whole purpose of comprehensive education?

In my limited experience as a parent (but with very many teacher friends) I thought the idea was that pupils could be put in sets according to their ability in each subject ie a pupil could be in top set for English, languages but a middle set for mathematics, sciences and vice versa?

And what about those in the 'bottom sets'? Even just calling them top, middle and bottom sets is discriminatory and can give those in the 'bottom' sets a sense of failure similar to that of so-called 'failing' the 11+.

The idea that there is a single standard for Public Schools is just ridiculous. They vary from completely ineffective, through coping with challenging children, to OK, but not exceptional, and then up to the highest and best. Some of the children sent to these schools are there because they could not cope in the state system and they receive the support they need. Teachers in the Public School also vary. The difference is that most of them could not cope if they were parachuted into a state school, because they don't have control and discipline skills. They don't need them. Very few teachers would need them if all classes were as small as they are in Public Schools. But that would require proper funding and this government has cut funding per pupil and has even lied and used false figures to cover this up.

Jura

This thread has morphed into Public / State school territory and it reminds me of another recent thread

www.gransnet.com/forums/education/1256137-GCSE-State-Public-Schools

You have repeated the fact your grandchildren, nieces and nephews, family relatives all go to public schools but your own children went to state.

On that thread you made an interesting statement re the quality of teaching :-

" As for teachers in private schools being 'better' - overall I can say 'no' categorically. All the teachers I know who taught in the private system were there for an easy life, or because they found they didn't have the discipline to cope. Some of the ones I knew we kicked out for being very poor teachers- and all ended up in private schools. There are some exceptions, but ...
-----

If the standard of teaching at Public School is in your opinion presumably poor for the reasons you gave what lies behind sending children to Public School if it is not for a better education?

I admit to thinking Public Schools would hire the best and brightest so if I take your word for it as a knowledgeable poster on the subject I am obviously mistaken.

Comprehensive has never been comprehensive - as t is creamed off by the private system. The last one I taught in was creamed off by both the Catholic School and the Private Grammar School.

The Comprehensive system, when well organised is excellent- the brightest students are in top streams for all the main subjects and can thrive. But it does need proper funding- when you have classes of 30+, and support for special needs is cut and cut again- then it is not the system that is wrong' it is the lack of funds and support.

But Public Schools is a different kettle of fish altogether- and the influence and unfair advantage is massive- still today, and there is little anyone can do about it. Taking away the Charity Status would be a good start- but even then.

It is certainly true that such men do have undue political influence and a noticeable presence in the government and civil service.
But why? This trend was reversing in the latter half of the 20th century.
Is it linked to the demise of the grammar schools?
Does it mean that, in fact, comprehensive education is failing?

Agreed, 'the Old Boy's Network' is alive and well - and with it come top jobs- waiting at the end of school as per 'right'.

I think the author of this article is talking exclusively about men who went to the "top" public schools, not women or anyone from a "minor" public school. It is certainly true that such men do have undue political influence and a noticeable presence in the government and civil service.

They've handed it over to Academies, some of which are excellent some of which are failing.
That is true, trisher, and one of my young relatives works in an excellent one.
However, it is also true of state schools - and in fact independent schools, not all of which are excellent.

kittylester - it goes in alternate generations in our family. Brother and I were independently educated, sent our children to state schools, then the children have sent their children to independent schools.

I agree PamelaJ1 we should never underestimate the importance of a good home which can make up for a lot of poor teaching etc.
There was a little girl at the boarding school with me who was inconsolable and cried herself to sleep. She felt abandoned by her mother and new husband. We girls tried our best to comfort her but I fear she was right.

Grammaretto- I think I had a similar experience to you.
I lived in countries where private education was the only option.
I don’t think that I’m very intellectual or highly cultured. Just normal.
My children went to state schools in this country as did my siblings offspring.
It didn’t seem to do them much harm.
I do think that the home environment is so important and parents, whatever their financial status, have a huge impact on their children’s aspirations and achievements.

trisher I passed the 11+ and somehow this mean I could stay on at the private convent school I had been attending since I was 7 but my parents didn’t have to pay the fees any more. No idea how that worked.

But I became an embarrassment age 13 when I started questioning Catholic doctrines etc so transferred to the local Grammar school.....only to discover I was way behind in most subjects.

You were correct stating that paying does not mean a better education.

All 5 of our independently educated children as left wing to some degree or another and they all send their children to state schools. Where did we go wrong!

I think you are right Trisher. Moneyed people who will become richer because of Tory policies are the real elite.

I find it amusing that those GNers who are paying for their child's education somehow thinks this puts the child on the same level as children who attend Eton, or Harrow, or Westminster. It doesn't. It may put them a bit ahead of some state school children but the real elite are completely out of that league!!!

And they got away with it- same as the NHS- because the majority of those in power, those who have clout and infuence - have been by-passing them for a long time- and neither them, nor their children- are affected.

By they will all be affecged by the Society which is created by destroying good NHS and good education. And all will pay. the massively rich, the rich, those in the middle and the poor and very poor. Because the streets are becoming more and more unsafe- and those who have so little have nothing to lose, and no chance of upward mobility- and yes, they will become resentful, and violent. Revolution, Les Misérables - it could happen anywhere. And when it happens, it is in fact the very rich that have created that situation, who pay the heaviest price. Society is for all - nothing wrong with being better off, having a bigger house, holidays. whatever- Public Education and Private Health Care as in better room or steak for hospital dinner with a glass of Château Lafitte... as long as it does not mean stripping those who can't afford it of good healthcare and good education, decent housing and living conditions. Let them eat cake will only last for so long- as history as shown, again and again.

trisher I don’t know how many times that point has been made on GN.

LEAs have been decimated by this government!

In my grandson’s (independent) junior school instrumental tuition is part of the curriculum. Violin for two years, now in Year 5 he’s learning the clarinet in class. Any further lessons would be extra, but at least they get to try.

Alexa - just about everyone I know who is privately educated /Oxbridge is left wing, because they hope that there is more chance of a left wing government providing a decent education for everyone, not just the well off.

Does no one know this government has been taking education out of the hands of LEAs for a considerable time. They've handed it over to Academies, some of which are excellent some of which are failing. Either way you no longer have any influence on them.

Well, if your LEA is so bad it's in your own hands to make it better.

Education should be a local authority administration and the experts who are the teachers should be the ones who make education decisions

It is where I live and they have made a right mess of it all . Wouldn’t blame anyone (with the resources) for sending their children to private schools . Our LEA couldn’t organise a Christmas party never mind the education of thousands of children across the borough .

A good friend went to a minor public school and Cambridge and he voted for Labour and hated Margaret Thatcher's policies.

Education should be a local authority administration and the experts who are the teachers should be the ones who make education decisions.

My argument is that Britain 's economy is wasted by lack of merit among the rulers, and also that people's morale is generally low because of inequality of income.

Gillybob I’m not clever to be musical, but I did have the advantage of being taught to play piano as a child, and yes it was at a private (not public) school.

It is all about advantage and opportunity, Almost anyone can learn to play an instrument if given the opportunity and support and if they stick at it.

I didn’t appreciate having to practise for 30 minutes every day at the time though.