“Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU” Petition

Interesting evening - result of first vote and ministerial resignations.

Not long now till the results of tonight's vote in the House.

oh FFS

In 1940 millions of Germans were preparing to come to the UK to take our jobs and houses (and lives). But we had a bloke in charge who decided to stop them. Now the Remainers (or Appeasers as they were called in 1940) seem to welcome the mass invasion and control of our country by a modern European dictatorship. Where is a Churchill when you need them? (Appease - to yield or concede to the belligerent demands of (a nation, group, person, etc.) in a conciliatory effort, sometimes at the expense of justice or other principles).

5,567,930 signatures

The obvious way forward, which would give us the chance to learn from our mistakes, is to Revoke Article 50, remain in the EU on our present advantageous terms, and, if we wish study our options properly before making any other decisions.

...the Tories refused to have cross-party talks until it was far too late to be effective
Very true, I think that anybody could foresee that TM needed to get as much consensus as possible.

Then of course the obduracy of JC didn't help matters
Yes, that too.

I think if there had been a substantial majority in favour of leave most Remainers would have accepted the result, but there wasn't.
I'm not entirely sure there. I do think that maybe the overall vote should have needed to be by a bigger majority for change (Yes, even as a Leaver I think that) but it wasn't what was required. Hopefully, as a nation, we can learn from the mistakes that have been made.

icanhandhemback I think if there had been a substantial majority in favour of leave most Remainers would have accepted the result, but there wasn't. In effect almost 50% of the UK who voted have been ignored. Had there been a quick, painless and effective negotiation to leave most remainers would have shrugged and let it happen. There hasn't been. And mostly it is not Remainers fault, it's the fault of the different factions in the Tory party. So we need a new vote.

I take your point icanhandthemback, but this is where we're at now and I wasn't singling out leavers or remainers, in fact I meant either, just people who will listen and consider the views of others, because we have to get back to living and working side-by-side in some sort of equilibrium.

I agree with much of your reply to Trisher that it's gone beyond Brexit now. What is irritating is that the Tories refused to have cross-party talks until it was far too late to be effective. Then of course the obduracy of JC didn't help matters, walking out of TMs vague attempt at cross-party consultation.

There has been a sort of national culpable negligence of listening at the highest levels. If the politicians on all sides could have been seen to be cooperating in trying to find solutions, the anger and bitterness at local level, and in some families, may have been dissipated. As I said upthread, the Tories have only themselves to blame and it's on their watch that the country is now on the verge of a modern day Civil War.

What did "Leave" mean?

trisher
Yes, you are right, there is that which makes it difficult. However, I think there will be some equally high feeling if a vote to stay goes through Parliament. I would have voted to remain if we could have negotiated some changes when David Cameron went to negotiate but I know many who just want to be out and nothing else will do. However, most Leavers I know, whilst they may not love "THE Deal" would prefer that to remaining.
In a way, it has gone beyond just Brexit now. It has highlighted quite well what is wrong with Politics, the Media, Social Media, etc. If we had voted to Remain, most of the Leavers I know would have shrugged their shoulder and just accepted the result, grumbling occasionally and saying, "I told you so," every time there was something handed down by Europe that they didn't like. Now we have Leavers who feel resentful because it appears that Remainers are sore losers, immigrants who feel unwanted and a Parliament in bits. If we have a new vote, even some Remainers feel it is undemocratic. The whole thing is an absolute nightmare which goes way beyond anything we could have envisaged when we got a Referendum. Is this how Civil Wars start?

icanhandthemback I don't think that is the real reason that Leavers cannot organise a march or a petition. The fact is that the 17 million who voted Leave had, and still have, differing images of what they thought Leave would deliver. In other words they voted for vastly different things, whereas Remainers had and still have a single vision-to stay in the EU.

Revoke Article 50: Labour’s Hilary Benn: says it ‘could be revoked’ to prevent no-deal Brexit

inews.co.uk/news/brexit/revoke-article-50-labour-hilary-benn-no-deal-brexit/

but then it is logical to those who are prepared to listen.

I think you would find that Leavers feel the same. It is logical to me that there is a possibility that people will vote with different email addresses, may not be eligible to vote in another referendum, etc. The same with the March. That is not to say I do not believe that there is a big strength of feeling about this issue, I do but it would be premature for Leavers to march/petition as there isn't anything to march about if we are not overturning Brexit so you can't really compare the strength of feeling at the moment.

cindersdad
A good post however I woul challenge some of your points:
1. Since 2016 roughly 2 million electors have passed away and roughly the same number of younger voters become eligible. The future belongs to the younger generation who are more aware than they are given credit for
As mentioned in one of my earlier posts. How many referendums/elections do we now have to have to accommodate those who have died and those who have achieved 18. Did you have to wait till someone died or did you have to wait for the next election after your 18/21 birthday.

2. The implications of leaving the EU are now much clearer.
Maybe to the ill informed, but many understood from day 1 and some have been waiting since Maastrich.

3. Many of us both leavers and remainers voted for reasons that had little to do with the EU. Immigration could have been controlled but both Labour and Tory governments could not be bothered to check and return those who did not work like many other EU countries
A minority on both sides will have voted for party politicsl readons

4 In the EU we can trade other countries if we make things they want. The demise of UK manufacturing is down to bad government and bad management of many years, this is slowly being reversed.
We can trade with the world outside the EU without their binding restrictions. We do not rely on manufacturing. We are world leaders in technology, construction and architecture, we are rich from ‘soft’ trades rather than heavy manufacturing and our innovation means we can reap the niche markets. UK goods are held in high esteem in the rest of the world (even though they may have been manufactured in Eastern Europe as UK logo stuck on)

^5. The need for EU and other
immigration is down to poor education and a lack of training of UK people. You cannot blame the EU for this^
There was never a need for other than specialist immigration which had always been allowed along with refugees and other classes. The EU free movement directive allowed many skilled and unskilled workers to arrive. Employers didnt need to train so out went training budgets and apprenticeships an added bonus was they also work for lower wages (which are still better than back home).

6. If Brexit is so good why is Honda closing its UK plant. James Dyson moving to Singapore. Jacob Rees Mogg shifting part of his business to Dublin. Why can't the Irish Border issue be sorted.
How nany times should the fact that these are business related mives and wiuld have occured anyway.

TM's deal is the worst of all deals being tied into the EU with no say and not what was voted for.
I agree

A Hard Brexit with no Trade deals will make us much poorer.
Supposition only.

MaizieD: it's not a vote, it's an expression of how people feel and the huge response shows a 'feeling' in the UK which should not be ignored. or demeaned.

You are right. The mood in the country now is completely different from the mood during the referendum campaign. We can't say to people who are not originally British but live and work here, and some have for many, many years: "oh yes, we do welcome you, we do appreciate your contribution" etc and then point out that because they are not on the electoral register their voice is meaningless. We are in this together.

I agree with Caledonai14, thank you Cindersdad, but then it is logical to those who are prepared to listen.

Many thanks to Cindersdad for a very clear explanation of why the march and petition should not be ignored.

humptydumpty
You are right.
But, what I was trying to point out was to those who were comparing the petition numbers to the referendum result and claiming 'only so many millions to go an we will have overthrown the referendum, come on lets get to 6 million etc.'
This cannot be right. You may get a petition of 20 million but unless each of the petitions were deemed valid UK voters the petition result cannot overthrow the referendum. As an indication of a remainers feeling that is okay, just dont think of it as anything other than that..an indication of feeling.

Joelsnan I'm confused! your post at midnight:

Unless each petitioner is verified against the electoral register there can be no credibility

Surely I must have misunderstood that - the petition is open to British people who reside outside the UK and are not on an electoral register?

varian
This is not a competition to see who can shout loudest.
I dont care who marches or who petitions (and I think so do the majority) everyone has a democratic right to express their views, so good on them However,
Only the ballot boxes have credibility..
If we get another referendum...so be it.

And it shows ten times as much strength of feeling compared with the leave means leave petition, which has barely exceeded half a million signatures after running since October.

I think both the petition and march are commendable shows of opinion, however the credibility of the petition cannot be measured against the referendum result unless every petition is verified against the electoral register.

Thank you for that Joelsnan

But I think it's credibility is just fine. As I said earlier, it's not a vote, it's an expression of how people feel and the huge response shows a 'feeling' in the UK which should not be ignored. or demeaned.

No its not as credible as a vote

But as petitions go , analysis of this particular petition is showing even LOWER levels of multi votes/bot style patterns than average petitions incl save our church spire type ones

I think both the petition and march are commendable shows of opinion, however the credibility of the petition cannot be measured against the referendum result unless every petition is verified against the electoral register.

In the next general election should we have two votes. One for those who are alive on the voting day and then another maybe a month later for those who have attained 18 and can replace those who have died (and may have been part of a disliked majority) so may swing the result towards the previous minority.

I am no hardline leaver. I did vote leave but was prepared to change if the remain views had been more credible than thise which swayed me towards leave. I contest the claims made on these threads for proof of credibility and well reasoned arguments which would make me change my mind. I have yet to be swayed.