The Second World War and Great Britain - we were not alone

You did say that our discussion on Swiss involvement in WW2 would be better on another thread Jura, but then returned to this one to post a “demand” that I give you facts and figures.

As you posted that demand on this thread that was where I responded, as I am doing now.

I still don’t understand why someone from a country that stood back would believe it appropriate to to use information about allied troops, to back up their personal point of view. How is the composition of allied troops in WW2 relevant to you?

I’m sure your father did an excellent job in protecting the borders and interests of Switzerland. As did all those who turned back Jewish refugees fleeing persecution.

Ah so it's offensive to talk about how leave used Britain and WW2 to support their campaign, but it wasn't offensive to actualy do it?

And that THAT is a real offence to those who have lost their lives and their families- which is why that long serving officer chose to speak about how it felt.
I do not think it is up to you to decide what is offensive to those who may have lost their parents because of WW2, jura.

Sorry, but I find the whole premise of this thread offensive.

As said, lemon, I am happy to discuss these very difficult times on a separate thread- but not here, I am fully aware of the facts- the 1000s of the good deeds as well as the bad - honestly. I was born just post war btw- but my father served in the cyclists throughout the war, protecting the borders. Please, look at a map and see where Switzerland is.

THE point of the post- just in case that is NOT clear yet (and I think it is, but some choose to make it personal and attack me in person and turn and deflect) - is that THE LEAVE campaign, especially groups from the extreme right- have been using such propaganda again and again- NOT the remain campaign. And that THAT is a real offence to those who have lost their lives and their families- which is why that long serving officer chose to speak about how it felt.

I wonder if the EU will take Will Self as part of any future deal I would consider that money well spent.

Terribull assume you mean 48% and 52% ?The vote was "won" by 52% of the 37% of the electorate that happened to vote .Hardly a massive win around 1 in 5 of the population said LEAVE !

Will Self actually said that he was certain that all racists and fascists voted leave, which is pretty obvious when you think about it and, when you look at the lot who turned up at Parliament on the 29th obviously true. Tommy Robinson and the EDL in force.
He didn't say everyone who voted Leave was racist although the Tory MP he was talking to thought he did. It did make you wonder how the hell the MP managed in the difficult and complicated Parliamentary debates if he couldn't understand the difference.

Yes you did indeed jura but it isn’t up to you what posters may put on this thread, and in bringing up the war, it’s entirely appropriate to discuss what happened in Switzerland ( which you obviously didn’t have any idea of.)
Neither did I, and found it quite shocking, allied aircfraft being shot down, and POW’s treated so harshly.

I will happily apologise for the confusion re the first Post. I truly felt that anyone who would read it, would be immediately aware that I had not written it. No edit function here sadly, so as soon as I posted, I realised I had not made it clear. But life being life, next door's cat appeared at the kitchen door and I took him next door as it was raining, and fed him and changed litter- as they are on hols.

20 minutes- when I made it all clear.

Eglantine:

'Well, I’m a bit nonplussed. Jura (and a couple of others) said this wasn’t the place to comment on Swiss involvement in WW2 so I refrained.'

I was under the impression (and I just can't be asked (my sp) to go back and look) - that I said this post was NOT about Switzerland, and that I was happy to discuss my birth country on a separate thread- no?

Isn't tolerance wonderful!

Well some comments just stick on your mind, as indeed some articles do simply because the comments are so derisory. Emily Thornberry's infamous tweet spoke volumes, as indeed an article from Matthew Parris in The Times, when he wrote a while back about the residents of Clacton/Jaywick Sands, probably apropos of Brexit. He elevated the Metropolitan Elite sneeriness to a whole new level, so much so, I nearly choked on my Brown Windsor Soup, with observations along the lines: the tattooed residents of this run down area belonged to a bygone era, it was all very sad but they were best ignored in favour of the metropolitan/multi ethnic/multi national graduates who are the future. To borrow from the intuitive Hillary Clinton, "basket of deplorables" the lot of them Not quite in Hitler territory but a clear signal, unworthy, just ignore! The other message coming out of that article, which I have seen expressed on GN from time to time,"although I'm a pensioner, I'm so switched on and down with the kids, they are my people, not a load of contemporary old farts it's as if I'm still a 20 something myself".

Similarly a couple of weeks ago listening to "Daily Politics" on BBC2, Will Self suggested that all racists voted leave, then backtracked a little by saying "not all leavers would be racists" but reiterated that "all racists voted leave". Strangely he didn't offer any negative insight into the intentions and characters of the remain voters, perhaps he hadn't got round to talking to all 48 million personally, too busy assessing the 52 million, but suffice to say it's safe to assume, not a racist or beastly person among the former.

So there we have an insight into those who have happily been educated at expensive institutions thus imbuing them with the wisdom to make judgements on what's lacking with the lower classes.

Isn't tolerance wonderful!

Oh, perhaps I'll give it a miss then.

Oh Jalima1108 it's just as appropriate as the previous post and perhaps I have more knowledge than some.
Skeggy doesn't do it because the booze is too expensive!

Skeggy just doesn't do it for them.

Has it gone upmarket now?
I must visit!

Your post is full of snobbery trisher! What sort of people? You mean the ones jura thinks voted Leave?

Some of my family visited Benidorm too (but not for the drinking).

This is in fact a bit of inverse snobbery. The sort of peeople you imagine you are talking about are far more likely to be found on an All Inclusive in Benidorm or Turkey where they can drink as much as possible for very little. Skeggy just doesn't do it for them.

actually three degrees between two of them

A good post Terribull

I had forgotten the Skeggy comment which was an example of the contempt in which those who voted Brexit are held by some of those who voted Remain.

Some of my family go to Skeggy and also voted Remain; the parents have degree too

Unfortunately I think the whole Brexit debacle has brought to the fore an unprecedented superiority and snobbery, exemplified by this type of remark, possibly tongue in cheek on one of the earlier Brexit forums "Anyone for Skeggy?" can't remember what thread was and what preceded it, but a thinly veiled opinion of the poster's vision of Brexiteers who would favour a run down British seaside resort, over one in mainland Europe, apologies if Skegness is not run down, I've never been there. However, to me it was a sneer, never mind there will be those who cannot afford to holiday in mainland Europe. It's the overriding opinion of uneducated Little Englanders, still mentally living in some colonial heyday, droning on about winning the war single handed, whilst simultaneously slurping on Brown Windsor Soup that gets me, coupled with the perceived "they don't have much of an education, certainly not up to my standard and never understood what they were voting for" directed at the "prols" who make up the leave voting contingency.

If any other demographic were stereotyped in such a way, I think we'd all know what the response would be from those who seek to castigate "the feeble brained leavers" I'm quite sure there are racist bigots among leavers, but equally they will be present among the 48%.

Oh by the way, my preference would be the revoking of Article 50, like everybody else I just want an end to this ongoing nightmare.

I do sense on this thread a real desire to find something offensive, possibly solely because of the identity of the OP. If you had problems with this she did try to explain. As to the allegations about Switzerland I think there are many accusations that could be hurled at many countries about their relationship with Nazi Germany and failure to provide safe havens for Jews and socialists, including Britain and the USA.

I should think there are many people who lost relatives - civilians and soldiers - in WWII or whose lives were forever affected by the war. I suspect there aren't that many people now who knew those that died personally.

I do not understand, though, why the loss of a soldier, though a tragedy, receives so much more coverage some 70 years after the war ended than a person who, for instance, carried out an act of selflessness which resulted in his or her death or profound disablement - perhaps in the course of doing their job, e.g. a fire officer, a social worker, etc, etc.

This constant focus on the war, with - it seems to me - a new person or event commemorated almost every week in the media feels to me like a steady drip drip of militaristic propaganda used both as a recruitment tool and as a reinforcer of nationalistic sentiment.

I agree with those who say that certainly some areas of the leave campaign and some people within it have tried to evoke feelings of nationalist solidarity by talking about the war and drawing a parallel between the war and Brexit - trisher has already provided examples of that. It is, of course, a very emotive picture to paint and one which particularly appeals to those who have nostalgia for the past rather than hope for the future (I expect we are all prone to that sort of nostalgia but I think it should sometimes be resisted).

I meant it was obtuse in that it misled some posters about the identity of the OP.

Of course I knew about the other nationalities flying with the RAF, how could I not.

I don't see why that should be so Jalima1108 I certainly knew there were Polish and Free French squadrons flying during the war and presumably , if the 'Britain stood alone' myth was not believed, so did others. In effect then it was just reitterating what they already knew.

Well, the whole thing was very obtuse, trisher, leading to misunderstandings.
And, in fact, the OP was rather upsetting for those who may have lost relatives in the RAF during WW2.
It is not the kind of thing one would read without a warning.

It might be better if Leavers were to acknowledge then that actually they are linked with some very dodgy and distasteful ideas, and agree to accept a second vote lemon,rather than insisting that the result of the referendum must be implemented. It's a bit like claiming you didn't know the goods were stolen but hanging on to them even when someone proves they were.

The thing is trisher that the majority of Leave voters are not fans of Farage or UKIP and have probably not heard or seen any of that, I certainly hadn’t, nor have I heard anyone expressing those views.
We are mostly of an age on GN to know quite a lot about the last war, and don’t require a lecture on it.What many posters are questioning is why this was posted and aimed at older people.
There is also a queasiness about using the subject as another stick to beat Brexit with.