another transgender surprise.

It wasn't me either, maryeliza. I can't remember even reading it, there have been so many good points on here I can't keep up.
Maybe because it drifted into court cases?

I never for one minute thought it was you trisher you’re one of my favourite posters (even when you’re wtong?) because you are so honest and straightforward when you disagree

I’ve just remembered now what my post was specifically about - it was about the transgender issue and women’s sport, transgender women in women’s prisons and crimes committed by self id-ing women being classified as committed by women. All these are real issues - I don’t understand why it was reported.

maryeliza54 your post was gone when I posted at 10.48. I don't report posts anyway so sorry I cn't help you.

Ah so reading the article the issue is not in fact "dead naming" but accusations about criminality, which apparently MN refused to take down.

Oh my goodness I’ve just come back from a day out to find my post deleted - I wonder who reported it. It wasn’t a personal atrack on anyone but a statement of what I believe re this debate . Truly truly chilling - I wouldn’t mind if the person who reported me PMed me because I really would like to understand what was wrong with what I said - imo it was a statement about fundamental biology. Or they could debate it on here. I am not a cis woman. I am a woman and to me that means adult human female. I’m actually quite upset about the deletion because I really don’t understand what I did wrong - all my other deletions I have understood

Oh dear life’s too short to take offence about some things mean while people are homeless , starving, persecuted.?

Thanks Fennel, I’m just going to read attachment

Yes I agree if deliberately used to cause offence, but if no offence is intended then surely life is to short to make a big issue about something that is relatively harmless.

ps btw there's a followup article about my OP :
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6912343/Transgender-activist-vows-sue-Mumsnet-founder-site-ignores-High-Court-order.html

Bridgeit I agree with you.
Most of us have hurtful things said to us - often or occasionally. But we don't take the offender to court about it.

Bridgit that's fine for most things and I would agree about the general terms but I do think that if you have changed your name (and people do it for all sorts of reasons, spousal abuse, paternal rejection as well as transgender) you should have the right to leave that name behind you and to find its use abusive.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could reserve ‘taking offence’
for absolutely deliberate insulting disrespectful abusive offensive comments & opinions .
Not being up to speed with new & preferred terminologies should be accepted as just that rather than an affront or insult to another human being. It only takes a little bit of kindness patience & tolerance ?

pinkquartz I haven't said it isn't reasonable to ask "why" and one of the interesting concepts is that it is related to the amount of oestrogen currently found in our water supply which has led to changes in fish.It is something worth investigating but doesn't mean we should ignore the current situation. www.purewaterpeople.co.uk/blog/2014/07/oestrogen-in-tap-water/
Support is great but is important not to set restrictions on that support or to make it seem that one course of action is preferable to another.

Trisher We are living at a time when more young people than ever seem to be really struggling.
I also remember teen years being really terrible. I was suicidal and I had multiple reasons I am not going to go into here.

I don't accept the so called studies because that is so easy people write studies....and who knows.....?

Perhaps as I said more acceptance all round of a person being a person is the better way.
Not shutting down discussion which is what you seem to be doing.....
you are saying its true see here it says so in black and white. but it is not so hard to write a study and convince people it is so.

If we are in the midst of such a huge number of people finding out they are trans then I am curious as to why?

I think people need time to find themselves. I know young people who are at risk , who have made suicide attempts, began to drink etc.......with enough support they came through it and they all had identity problems but they were not gender identity issues .

I am dubious about early signs of being in the wrong gender body because I have seen children grow up and be different to how they were as kids.

What about in 10 years time when these children are unhappy adults truly trapped in a wrong body? That is not even being considered is it?

There are a number of threads on Mumsnet which are worth reading if anyone is interested in learning more about transgender issues.

The etymology of woman is really interesting. It doesn't mean not a man, or of a man, or anything like that. Originally, mann meant person. A wifmann was a female person, a wermann was a male person. Over time, wifmann changed to woman, wermann changed to man. So woman is not a misogynistic word from the patriarchy and it doesn't need to be changed to womyn, womxn or anything else. However, cis is completely redundant since it implies that the words men and women are not enough - they are for the vast majority of us and frankly I am insulted by the term cis.

Incidently people change their names for all sorts of reasons and they do find it very upsetting to be called a name they no longer accept and most of them would agree it is abuse.

As I have already said using a proper name that anyone finds unacceptable whatever the reason is abuse. If that person has said they no longer wish to be called Mr Y or Mrs X then that decision is to be respected. It is in no way similar to categorising someone as trans-gender or cis-gender, binary , non-binary or any other term.

from Notanan
"Do you think people should be allowed to chose their gender?".
I'm interested in the factors that influence this choice. Mainly because the one trans person I know is the daughter of a friend. We knew her as a little girl, she wasn't butch at all. She/he is in her 30s now, has a beard, but still a very light feminine voice.
We haven't asked her why she decided to change.

Equally others can refer to you by any of those terms if they wish.

In which case I refer you back to the OP..

If we are to allow others to call us what they want, then deadnaming is not a crime in your opinion?

pinkquartz from a pamphlet for nurses
A number of studies suggest that trans people are at higher risk of depression, self harm, substance misuse, suicidal thoughts and behaviour, and suicide attempts than cisgender people.22;27;28 All of which are reliable indicators of future suicide risk.29;30
Various studies highlight the high rates of depression and self harm among trans young people and adults. In the UK, more than one in three trans young people have experienced major depression.27 In a study in San Francisco, more than one in two trans adults reported depression.28 In the UK at least one on two trans young people report self-harm.12;27 Trans young people also have high rates of substance misuse, another risk factor for suicide.31;32
There is a strong evidence base that demonstrates the negative impact of discrimination and stigma on trans young people. The result is increased substance misuse, depression, self-harm and suicide.22;33
You can read the whole thing
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/417707/Trans_suicide_Prevention_Toolkit_Final_26032015.pdf

You (as I have said before) can call yourself what you want notanan2 (why do you have problems understanding this?) what you cannot do is dictate to others how they refer to you.So you can be a cis-woman, a woman, a womyn or womxn if you wish. Equally others can refer to you by any of those terms if they wish.
I have never said by the way that the problem is completely solved what I have said is that not offering help and saying someone will "grow out of it" is just as bad as not acknowledging someone's feelings in the first place.

Hormone blockers are not really safe, there are doctors worried that some of the children may end up unable to have children.
I see more suffering and misery ahead.
I don't think everyone who is uncertain what gender they are will end up alcoholic or suicidal. That is far too big a claim.

These children are guinea pigs.......admit it. No one really knows how things will work out fo rthese childre, the answer is in the future.

We are all entitled to have opinions on this and to voice them.
I want people accepted full stop. The details can be added in later.
If children were taught that it doesn't matter if they don't know yet if they "should be" girls or boys. Take away the pressure.
Does it matter if a boy isn't sure if he is really a boy......he will discover as he grows up.... and a lot of us go through all kinds of stresses growing up and still not alcoholics or suicidal.

What is needed is the support to be whoever while you find out for yourself!

The problem is notanan2 that you identify other people's problems as being equivalent to your own and the small, if personally significant, struggles you have had, as the same as someone who positively knows they are in the wrong body and have the wrong gender.

Firstly. I dont I never said that my post about my own experience was in reply to lemongroves experience.

Secondly, my struggles would have been much greater if I had been a kid/teen today in this new woke dystopia where I probably would have been a transboy rather than a tomboy, and would suffer the consequenses of the magic pills for the rest of my life. My mental health would be much worse right now had I had to negotiate being who I am now, rather than then.

And that is my point.