Peers wanting to remove pensioners' benefits

People in Germany have traditionally mostly rented instead of buying their homes (I gather that is beginning to change) whereas until fairly recently in the U.K. a good percentage of people owned their homes and would normally have paid off their mortgages by the time they retired

I picked up on that in one of my post to M0nica Witzend and it seems a likely explanation. Remember that these are the maximum pensions they pay so, if we are looking at our system housing costs could make the maximum very high until we build more housing. That is already being paid though and it is just moving it all to under one wrapper called "Pension" or perhaps as others do "old age benefit" as this is what it really is.

I am trying to unravel this Nonnie, so perhaps better done bit by bit.

So you are suggesting that the NI we pay should not necessarily pay a pension?

NI does not pay for your pension. It is merely another tax that goes into the larger tax pot. The amount you pay is also described as being for all working age benefits. Do you really believe that it goes into a pot that you, personally can draw upon?

Why not? We were promised it would so reneging on that promise is OK? If we pay into an endowment insurance it pays out on maturity, just like the state pension.

We have never been promised any such thing. Perhaps it is just what you have chosen to believe? If it worked like an endowment we should have had a statement each year and the government would never be able to change it. It is tax. It certainly pays towards the provision of pension benefits in general but your payments are not exclusively for your benefit.

Has it occurred to any of you who want to remove these payments what the effect would be? Worse for the environment, worse for others who want to use the daytime public transport, old people stuck in their homes in the cold with nothing to do and therefore becoming a drain on the NHS and all for what?

I am not suggesting, nor did I ever suggest, they just remove the payments the Lords talked about. I did suggest (possibly in other posts you did not bother to read) that they totally overhaul the pension system so that people could pay for their public transport, heat their home and not become isolated. I am not sure why you think I was agreeing with what the Lords said? If you stopped being just angry and read what I have posted you would realise you have got the wrong end of the stick.

To punish those who have provided for their old age because some young people 'need' things we could only dream of! No incentive to save for their old age, just let the state provide for them. It has already started with people taking their private pensions at 55 so they will get state help when they retire

If you think your income is in the top 20% I, personally, would suggest a means-tested system and yes, in that case you would not receive a pension. M0nica has had another suggestion which would leave everyone with at least a very basic pension including those with the top 20% of income and wealth. It has been an interesting and thoughtful discussion. I think even this would be eventually phased out but it is sort of the same thing coming from a more familiar direction and may therefore be more acceptable.

I will ignore what you say after that - it is really a different discussion and one I have no wish to take part in.

Meant to add I don’t understand why the WFA and BP should kick in 5 years after SPA - that’s just bonkers imo

The reporting of this report has been full of scaremongering and misleading . It is a report with recommendations not a Bill. Even if there was a political will to implement it, the earliest date mentioned in the report is mid 2020s and given everything that is going on, that’s a pipe dream. It makes perfect sense to align the WFA and BP with the SPA - why on earth should they be 60? The TV licence is 75. No logic at all. I do think the triple lock might eventually go and so it should - all benefits should be updated annually by the same measure - either in line with earnings or cost of living. It’s completely wrong to treat the SP differently from the majority of other benefits.

I also think it’s sad that so many of you don’t understand the amount of really good work that goes on in the Lords. Whilst I think it should be elected ( and only the Tories are against an elected chamber) the number of hereditary peers has been slashed ( thank god) and there is a large group of absolutely excellent cross- benchers. I particularly follow Tanni GT and her sterling work on disability issues, especially fighting for accessible public transport. She works incredibly hard and at £300 a day is underpaid. In recent years the Lords have also done good work in challenging, improving and revising some of the very shoddily written Bills thst have come before them. I think second chambers are an excellent part of a parliamentary system and even with its current shortcomings, we’ve been better off with it than without it.

BP = bus pass

It would probably cost a good deal to pay people to do the work of means testing. I also think it would be unfair to take away the benefits of those who saved for their retirement, possibly by paying a higher ‘stamp’. I have worked most of my life in the NHS and before that in the RAF. I get no pension from my RAF service because I only did five years, not nine or more, I have heard other retired NHS staff complaining about only having their state pension but, this was because they chose to pay a married woman’s contribution rather than pay a full contribution. I now get a reasonable NHS pension but only because I went without while working.

SPA = state pension age
WFA = winter fuel allowance

This always gets 'run up the flagpole' when an election is in the offing to see which way public opinion reacts. Traditionally 'taking' anything from pensioners (i.e. not giving them something they'd got used to receiving) has been political suicide.

Using my bus pass means that I don't drive so much, so doing my bit not to pollute the atmosphere. Surely encouraging people to use public transport is a good thing? I agree with all those who have said that for some people the chat at the bus stop or on the bus is vital social contact.

We are fortunate not to need the winter heating allowance, so we give to to local charities helping the homeless. If you don't need it, you don't need to keep it. I believe I read somewhere that the bureaucracy which would be needed to allow people to opt out would cost more than the actual benefit costs.

Hmm, I survive on less than £800/month! My rent 8s £550.00 so you can do the maths on that.

Suggestion, if the peers and lords are so intent on hitting pensioners, us, the6 should reduce the £300.00 /day they earn for just turning up at the h9use of lords! And most of them sleep through the session.
Just making a point.

Yes, I'm aware of that, GracesGran

Aware of what Whitsend? The conversation move quite quickly and it's difficult to know without a quote as reference.

I'm in a rural area with expensive bus fares, I don't drive. Born in 1954, I've waited 5 years longer for my state pension than I was led to believe. I was nearly in tears yesterday when I read that I might lose free travel. I would become very isolated. Fortunately I can apply for the pass early next month and will do so before they have a chance to snatch away this lifeline. I'm horrified by what the current HoL has become. They are no longer fit for purpose and need to be abolished.

I've never used my bus pass and, if I want to watch tv, it shouldn't be up to the tax payer to fund it. What does make me cross is that state pension is about £8000 a year but a refugee who has made a successful claim to stay here and, who has never make made any financial contributions to the country, can get about £25,000 per annum. Look it up; that can't be fair at all.

Couldn't agree more. These narrow minded ignoramus! In this country we exist on a pension not live on it.. The increase is an insult as everything has gone up far more than the pension increase. Only yesterday I had a letter from Scottish Power informing me that they are increasing my DD by twenty pounds a month!

The bus pass is a lifeline to so many people and it helps boost the footfall on the High Street. I know a couple who use their bus pass to go out somewhere every day, Living in a rural area they often take a bus that goes up to the coast via the scenic route. They have a coffee or two on arrival, sometimes they shop a little then they have lunch. With the help of their bus pass they are helping to support the local shops and eating places. Probably keep some of the bus drivers in a job?

We are told that loneliness is the cause of many deaths and illnesses. Many are going to become more isolated without their bus pass. This will have a knock on effect on the NHS and other over stretched services.

With regards to the TV licence how many young people actually watch TV? It's phones, I pad, monitors etc!

These 'educated' peers don't look at the larger picture.

The Lords get £300.00p per day just for clocking in alone. Plus travel expenses. Plus subsidised bars. Plus subsidised dining room.

As the Jobseekers Allowance is (I believe) still stick at £73.10p per week for a single adult and is to cover utility bills, a percentrage of council tax, travel expenses, food, clothing, telephone and emergencies then let us see our high & mighty Lordships existing on that......

SPA, BP?
maryeliza54
Please stop putting all these acronyms into your comments.
Some of them are not on the GNHQ website.

The most recent raising of the state pension change was by George Osborne, who said in 2013 to the Global Investment Conference
"I’ve found it one of the less controversial things we’ve done and probably saved more money than anything else we’ve done.”

This is another example of getting groups to attack each other rather than see the bigger picture. Also an example of the growing inequality in the UK since George Osborne's austerity policies set in.

I had to wait 2 extra years for my state pension but despite full contributions and paying an arguable top up, I still get less than my husband!! Nevertheless, we run a tight ship and manage our money and would be prepared to pay for prescriptions, a bus pass, etc.

The question of means testing is always what level it should be set at, how you manage fraud and deception and ensuring that those entitled know and are helped to apply. The bedroom tax and universal credit don't inspire confidence. Will those disabled people deprived of income, who have ended up dying, sometimes by their own hand, be joined by numbers of pensioners?!

We are not well off pensioners by any means . We both receive the State Pension , and small occupational pensions having worked hard all our lives . I do not drive and use the buses frequently collecting DGC ,shopping and other every day activities . I would be strapped financially if I had to pay , but would be happy to pay say £30 a year for a free bus pass . Many buses would discontinue without us oldies and thus isolating us even more . We have a little " hopper" bus that is a lifesaver for many, as the lovely drivers will stop on any corner to pick up and drop off ..
TV licences could be half price for the elderly who live alone and free if on pension credit or housebound .I do know of a number of well off multigenerational families who get free TV .Mind you they are saving the NHS / social services a fortune in caring for their relatives !
I am outraged that those in the House of Lords who no doubt use their state pension as "sweetie money" and have private chauffeurs can suggest such things .

GGMK3 your post at 20.20 on 25th.

So you are suggesting that the NI we pay should not necessarily pay a pension? Why not? We were promised it would so reneging on that promise is OK? If we pay into an endowment insurance it pays out on maturity, just like the state pension.

Has it occurred to any of you who want to remove these payments what the effect would be? Worse for the environment, worse for others who want to use the daytime public transport, old people stuck in their homes in the cold with nothing to do and therefore becoming a drain on the NHS and all for what? To punish those who have provided for their old age because some young people 'need' things we could only dream of! No incentive to save for their old age, just let the state provide for them. It has already started with people taking their private pensions at 55 so they will get state help when they retire.

Yes, I'm aware of that, GracesGran. An Australian friend of 80 who is comfortable, but by no means rolling in it, receives no state pension at all.

People in Germany have traditionally mostly rented instead of buying their homes (I gather that is beginning to change) whereas until fairly recently in the U.K. a good percentage of people owned their homes and would normally have paid off their mortgages by the time they retired. (Yes, I am well aware that not everyone has managed to buy or to pay off their mortgage before retirement.).

But that - the need for most to continue paying rent - may partly account for higher pensions in Germany. I gather that many German rental,properties are owned by pension funds anyway, which may perhaps be relevant.

I believe that a more cost-effective way to fill the nation's coffers, which despite years of austerity seem to be sadly depleted, would be to pass laws to ensure that companies and corporations pay their fair share of tax. Of course, young people's services need money, as does the NHS, Education etc. It's not going to be found by depriving some older people on low incomes of really quite small benefits.

DH and I are seething. There are a lot of very very rich retired people who claim state pension who don’t need it, can afford to pay their tv licence etc. Most of us are having to struggle and watch where every penny goes.
It makes me sick and angry we have all worked I have worked since I was 15 so has my dh, we are retired and want to enjoy ourselves. Yet we are being constantly picked on.All of us on here have worked hard and we deserve a decent comfortable retirement.

Such an assumption, imo, could only come from someone who doesn't understand the sheer hard work and sacrifice some of us made.

Just who is making the assumptions here Nonnie . You have no idea of my life as I have no idea of yours.

However, the benefits of any scheme are not paid out for what you consider to be good behaviour. It is insurance in case things do not turn out as we hope. Insurance is the most co-operative thing most people ever do. It seems some people don't want to be co-operative.

We all pay in and then those who need it, be it for a car accident, an illness or low income, draw out. I am not at all in favour of the idea that we draw on an insurance because we were good little boys and girls. It is infantilising the population who then, if they don't get what they expect blame mummy and daddy (the government) we all have to grow up sometime and realise we don't get rewarded just for what we consider to be "good behaviour". That, in my mind, is quite ridiculous.

I do wish well off pensioners would stop telling the world how well off they are! They are just making the case for the government.