Peers wanting to remove pensioners' benefits

GG I would have thought the answer was obvious. People have suggested taking the add-ons from those paying tax and I would like those people to tell me how someone in that position would cope. Simple

GracesGranMK3
I would rather think that empathy would be forthcoming without needing to know the A > Z of spending but there may be some on here who can help to answer your question and clarify their management of that amount.

Eloethan
I did not judge and I was not and am not, in any way, referring to myself.
There are many on here who have worked hard for what they have and, if they find themselves in a comparitively wealthy or comfortable position as a result, I do not think they should be penalised by HMRC.
That was and is my view. You cannot read 'the politics of envy' into that comment.
I am, in essence, not in favour of people who, due to the results of their hard work and application have bettered their position but now find that some others expect their contribution to the public purse to be higher so that those in less comfortable circumstances can receive higher benefits.
I am excluding my own position from any comments.

When I posted to Gabriella, Eloethan, I hadn't read your post. It's a very comprehensive summary of just how our tax system favours the already well off. In the Economist article I referred to earlier in this thread, they point out how those who inherit often marry those who inherit. This is why the writer suggests we are moving back to the days of Downton Abbey. It is not just current inequality that is a concern but the direction of travel we, the generation who benefited so much from the changes after the war, have set out on.

If you are fortunate not to be in the position (of having to live on sub £13k pa) why on earth would you want to know how someone would manage to do so? (GabriellaG54)

Perhaps an empathy for others? Would that be so strange?

Gabriella You appear to be very judgmental about people who are not as well off as yourself. You say those who are wealthy have "slogged their way to a better lifestyle". Some people who are wealthy can perhaps be described in that way but there are plenty of people who work very hard for low wages who have a truly awful lifestyle and who live from hand to mouth.

And not all wealthy people owe that wealth to hard work and good financial management. Some extracts from an article in the Guardian in January 2017 illustrates this point:

QUOTES :"The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) found that today’s young people were likely to inherit more wealth than their predecessors but the benefits would be skewed to those who were already well off."

"Owner-occupation rose from 30% at the end of the second world war to a peak of 70% at the turn of the millennium, while property booms in the 1970s, 1980s and 2000s have seen house prices rise by almost 300% in real terms in the half-century ending in 2010."

"The thinktank warned that future inheritances were set to be highly unequal given that the richest half of elderly households held 90% of the wealth and the richest 10% held 40% of the wealth."

"The largest inheritances would in the main go to those who were already well off. More than half of those likely to secure an inheritance of at least £250,000 had incomes in the top 20% of the population."

"Andrew Hood, a senior research economist at the IFS, said: “The wealth of younger generations looks set to depend more on who their parents are than was the case for older generations." "

“At the same time, today’s young adults will find it harder to accumulate wealth of their own than previous generations did, due to the sharp fall in homeownership for that group, the dramatic decline of defined benefit pensions in the private sector and the stagnation in their incomes.” END OF QUOTES

Aside from the "super rich", who have various capital assets and streams of income, the article indicates that a significant proportion of older people's growing wealth is due to huge increases in house prices - which has nothing whatsoever to do with working hard.

Yet still those who are fortunate enough to have a valuable property and a comfortable income insist that their good fortune is wholly down to their own efforts and complain they are being "penalised" for being so hardworking. The very top rate of income tax is 45%, on any amount earned above £150,000 - yet still those earning millions make every effort to avoid, or even evade, paying tax. VAT, however, is payable on most goods and services, is charged at 20% and is paid by everyone, however low their income may be. Surely, by that reckoning, the poor are being "penalised".

It is, I think, insulting to suggest that those who feel the taxation system is very seriously skewed in favour of the wealthy are merely reflecting the "politics of envy". I am not envious. My husband and I own a house that has risen enormously in value since we bought it. We both worked, and worked hard, and have a comfortable, though not lavish, lifestyle. But I don't think we worked any harder than many young families today - and I don't think we experienced the housing, financial and job insecurities that many working people experience now.

That was in reply to Nonnie

If you are fortunate not to be in the position (of having to live on sub £13k pa) why on earth would you want to know how someone would manage to do so?
What a waste of time.

Your first two paragraphs are taking us off to another subject GrannyGravy13. Perhaps it's worth another thread?

"Taking away pensioners rights will not fill the governments coffers, it is just a divisive way to pit generations against each other."

Rights change all the time; ask the people on Universal Credit. It's time we overhauled areas such as Pensions and Care. Sadly little or nothing other than Brexit has a chance under this government.

GGMK3 we need companies to invest in U.K. Manufacturing and Industry, to provide jobs, apprenticeships and graduate programs. Some of these will get "tax breaks" and rightly so.

We all know big multinationals who pay as little tax as possible, these should be held accountable.

Taking away pensioners rights will not fill the governments coffers, it is just a divisive way to pit generations against each other.

Saying that we each have a responsibility to prepare for our retirement when financial circumstances permit.

That should be four decades not 10.

"I stand by those who have slogged their way to a better lifestyle by giving up time spent with family, working more than one job, taking less pay in order to keep their business afloat in difficult circumstances and all manner of sacrifices, many of which may have compromised their health at times." (GabriellaG54 Mon 29-Apr-19 14:24:43)

No one is saying people didn't work hard but they didn't do it on there own and they didn't do it without a country like ours to do it in. Taxes should be fair. They are not and have been getting more and more unfair for the past 10 decades. Inequality leads to dire consequences not just for the poor whose future is stolen but for the whole of society - the one you will have to live in.

Gabriella, to be fair we are serial house renovators. Four so far and we have been so long in this house DH is running out of renovations so he is designing an extension!

I doubt this would work newnanny as you would get people refusing meals rather than pay for them, which would in turn hamper recovery.

Another point about free travel passes for èlderly is that elderly reaction times and often eyesight is not so good as it once was so best to gently encourage them off the roads with free bus pass.

A very simple and fair way of raising more money foe NHS would be to charge those in hospital for meals taken.

I think after paying a TV license for almost 60 years people over 75 should be entitled to a free pass as for many it is only entertainment they have as not well enough to get out and about, especially in winter. I think government shou
d leave it up to individual's to either claim winter fuel allowance or not if they need it/want to as it will cost more to work our fair system. I do think if people live in a home for elderly and not responsible for paying heating or TV license they should not get it though. When young people have paid NIC for say 50 years then they should know they wfill qualify too. Young people with children get child benefit and some young families can claim working tax credits and housing benefits. I don't see why older people who have made contributions over many years should be denied just so younger people who have paid in for less time should get extra benefits.

Hi M0nica
I'm sure you must have had a real need to re-roof your houses as it's not something I imagine anyone does 'on a whim'.
At least you appear happy with the result. All good.

Gabriella just read you post at the top of the page.

We have had our roof stripped and redone three times, twice reusing the same tiles with a few extras, once with completely new tiles. Admittedly not all the same house - and we have also renewed guttering, once completely, several times parts thereof. In fact we make quite a family hobby of renewing roofs. Shortly after we had our first roof renewed, DH's parents were so impressed they did so as well and today the roofers started on reroofing DS's home.

GracesGranMK3
Thanks for reply but I'm not surprised that my take on 'wealth' or a 'comfortable lifestyle' doesn't sit well with you or others who share your views.
IMV, neither of us is right or wrong. It's just a difference of opinion.
I stand by those who have slogged their way to a better lifestyle by giving up time spent with family, working more than one job, taking less pay in order to keep their business afloat in difficult circumstances and all manner of sacrifices, many of which may have compromised their health at times.
If I were a recipient of pension credit, believe me, I would still salute their efforts and believe in their right not to be bled tax-wise.
I'm never envious of anyone and am thankful for everything. If it all went down the pan tomorrow, I know I could find a way to manage.
I really don't understand why wealthy people are demonised.
If they had estates and wealth passed down to them it's just the same as you leaving your house and belongings to your children...just a different ratio.
Who's to say that whoever benefits from largesse, doesn't squander it?
These forums are a great way to exchange ideas and read different views and I don't expect to have agreement from or with every comment posted.
It's good to lock horns as long as we don't cause damage.

I think for us “ordinary” folks the tax system is fair.

What needs to be looked at is the multinationals moving funds/profits through various “shelf companies” and thereby not paying any where near the proportion of corporation tax due.

"If by "wealth" you mean ..." (GrannyGravy13 Mon 29-Apr-19 11:04:05). Wealth is defined as the value of all the assets of worth owned by a person.

Thinking of those with great wealth, with no wealth and those in the middle, wouldn't many of them say that their lives have been stressful, they worked long hours, and sometimes it would have been easier to give up? Life may never have been equal but it has been more equal in the recent past.

I think Eloethan had a point in setting out the figure for inheritance tax. Your post would be more appropriate if someone was suggesting you would pay more tax than those wealthier than you, rather than those poorer than you.

What I am suggesting is not the "politics of envy" (Nonnie Mon 29-Apr-19 11:13:19). Conditions have been changed by governments in the last four decades that have increased the significance of inheritance. From 1910 to 1950 that significance had fallen. The ideas of equality of opportunity which came out of the two world wars have been lost. All I'm suggesting is that we should resurrect them. To do this, those with more must go back to paying a fairer share of tax.

Are you really telling me that excessive inheritance and privilege is good for the country? Were the days of the "landed gentry", where inherited wealth dictated your future, what you aspire to for our country? Because there is every likelihood that is what will happen unless we adjust the tax system to a fairer one.

winter did you know that those who live in some big conurbations already get free rail travel with their bus passes? In London they call it the Freedom Pass and many MPs seem to think that all pensioners get it, they don't. Labour has said they will nationalise the buses and railways so either those who currently get it will lose it or it will be given to everyone.

I thought at the time that the theory behind deferred pensions was that the population was staying active for longer and therefore continuing working for longer so state pension not needed so early. Where did that go wrong?
Entirely agree that there should be a modest annual charge for bus passes, as for rail cards, but perhaps collected 5-yearly to save admin costs? WFA and free television licences could kick in at age 75 or 80. Can’t think why those simple measures haven’t been introduced already.

I believe, for a couple, the inheritance tax threshold is £850,00. It is not widely publicised but the vast majority of estates do not attract inheritance tax.