Peers wanting to remove pensioners' benefits

Don't apologise GG13 I fully understand how you feel, I feel the same knowing how we struggled and we don't want to be made to feel guilty because we are OK now. We have put far more into the state than we have taken out and we give to charity so it is unfair to blame us for others' inability to do the same or even those who made different choices and are not as secure as us now.

There is also the train of thought that if you have your own business "you must be rolling in it" . Ha! what a bleedin' joke that is. I bet my DH and I earn well below the national minimum wage, in fact I know we do !

Apologies for my “ranty” post.

Nonnie we know we are fortunate now but it didn’t feel like we were fortunate during the hard/children raising time.

Envy is not nice in any form and achieves nothing.

GG13 agreed. It's the 'politics' of envy isn't it? Is there really something wrong with starting out with nothing and working your way up? Why do so many think it has been easy or lucky? If you remove the incentives to succeed and save for your old age what message are you sending out to those coming behind us?

And the state would never keep you and your husband, GrannyGravy, even if you spent every penny of savings that you have, as your joint income must be way over the level where you would be eligible for pension credit.

In fact, even if you both had just a basic state pension and no other income whatsoever, you would still be over the income threshold for PC!

GGMK3 I can assure you that the system is definitely not skewed to give me "my wealth" what a totally ridiculous post!!!!!

If by "wealth" you mean running a small business whilst raising 5 children, often with baby in pram behind desk or toddlers in playpen or even traveling around the SE with youngsters in the back of the car during school holidays as we did not have GP on hand to help.

Everything we have has been gained through stress, long hours at some times it would have been easier to close down and go bankrupt putting our employees out of a job and causing hardship to their families but no to the detriment of our family life and our relationship we carried on!!!!

Life has never been equal for all and probably never will be, but a little less "bashing" of those who have managed to accrue a bit in the bank and pay off their mortgage would be nice sometimes.

Lots of interesting information here, thanks, but not quite what I asked for.

People have said that those paying tax should not get the free prescriptions, WFA and bus passes. The tax threshold is £12,500 pa so I would love it if someone could give a breakdown of how a single person, living below the tax threshold, could manage please. Maybe one of the people who suggested they didn't need the add-ons? Obviously it would need to include everything. I simply want to know because I am fortunate to not be in that position.

But you will always be better off keeping your wealth GrannyGravy13. Why spend it all just because you may be a little less well off? Can't you see that the system has been skewed toward you being able to acquire the wealth you have? Don't you feel there may be some justice in correcting that a little?

GGMK3 we have paid tax and still pay tax on husbands SP, OP along with rent and dividends from our family business.

Yet when we die our children will be penalised for our ability to save for a secure future for both us and them. Inheritance tax has got to change or we might just as well spend the “bloomin lot” and let the state keep us!!!

It won't wash Gabriella. We have growing wealth which has seen the value of estates double in the last 20 years. Inheritance has not played as big a role in the economy since the 1930s. Although you do not want governments to rebalance this and play "Robin Hood" it was brought about by "Sheriff of Nottingham" governments in the first place.

Looking at this problem the Economist reports:

"In the past four decades, real house prices have increased by more than in almost any other rich country, according to our house-price index. The rising value of housing forms a big share of the total increase in Britain’s capital stock."

It seems that, when it benefits the wealthy, it is okay to manage the market but when we talk about a rebalancing it is not.

And it is no good the wealth owners coming out with the standard excuses. The "look how hard we worked to get this" one. We are all more and more aware that the poor may be working just as hard or harder, often in much less salubrious circumstances, to earn their poverty. Then there is the "We scrimped to be where we are" excuse. Well here's a novel thought; what do you think the poor do? They could probably teach the wealthy quite a lot about scrimping, balancing budgets, etc. And the final one "we are good people". Well so are the poor. The idea that all the poor are shirkers or, as I have seen written on another forum, "scum" is slowly being shown to be just so much propaganda, put out by the party who set all this division in motion in the first place.

So I have little sympathy Gabriella. Wealth should be taxed as if it were income. You should not be taxed more for money earned "by the sweat of your brow" then for wealth that produces an unearned income. Income should be taxed progressively all the way to the top. People should not be allowed to inherit privilege - inheriting a reasonable amount of wealth is quite enough.

How much tax do they pay in Spain France and Germany? How much is their cost of living, insurance, prescriptions, rents?
Germany for one (so another GNer pointed out recently) is struggling financially.
I love my country and I'm grateful for all we have. I certainly don't think it's right for GB to do a Robin Hood impression. Big companies which really do owe tax should pay but people who amass 'wealth' or a comfortable lifestyle through innovation and hard work, should not be penalised.
Life is what you make it and most people have some opportunities to better themselves. One can rise to unimaginable heights from the poorest of beginnings as many have done.

Eloethan
I pay £850pm rent for a 2 bedroom (1 double 1 single) unfurnished apartment with white goods and have lived here for almost 9 years.
It has a large double aspect sitting room, fully fitted kitchen with range and cooker hood plus lighting under wall units, small utility room with combi-boiler, washing machine and fridge/freezer plus shelves and hooks for coats, a largish hallway and staircase to upper floor with main bedroom about 12.5ft×15ft with built in wardrobe and shelving in recesses and smaller b'room about 10×8 plus bathroom with bath and over-bath power shower plus loo and basin.
I have never seen the owner since I took over the tenancy.
If something needs doing I text or email and say what needs doing together with 3 quotes (my idea) get job done and either pay myself, email copy of bill and receive BACS into my bank in under 2 hours or, workman sends bill to owner.
Yearly gas safety cert and inspection of smoke alarms is settled by owner directly.
According to terms of tenancy I must ask if I can do certain things like painting or whatever but we don't bother with me asking as it's simply a formality.
I do sometimes pay for items myself so that workmen can't overcharge.
I paid for a new rainshower head and fittings as I got cashback from Topcashback but owner paid shop price plus labour which was cheaper than plumber buying it. Likewise security lighting.
I always ask for product boxes so I can check the price.
I've fitted new tap washers myself and saved owner money in many ways. It's a two way thing. We both value/trust our relationship. I live in countryside beside a small town near
Guildford, Surrey. A very nice place to live but I do own a house in Virginia Water which I let...part of my divorce settlement.

My last post was for Gabriella

That's good then. We don't need to do anything about the pensions or the add ons. Everyone is just as fine on our low pension in the fifth richest country as they are in France, Germany and Spain on their higher ones and heaven help us if we think we should tax wealth to help the poor. Just keep putting them in a position where they have to claim benefits. They can manage perfectly well - what more do they deserve?

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
Wealth made them high or lowly,
And ordered their estate.

Gabriella I think you said you were renting your home and I wondered how long you have lived there and what rent you are paying. I assume you don't mind disclosing that since you have listed quite a lot of your other outgoings.

In the area I live in, renting just a bedsit can cost £700 a month and a flat would be upwards of £1,000 a month.

It is true that the majority of older people own their own homes by the time they retire but there is a small but significant number of older people who are renting.

Some extracts from a 2016 Age UK report "Ageing in Squalor and Distress" provides information as to the numbers of older renters, the longterm trends and the difficulties which some older renters face:

"More than 21 per cent of older people over 55 have no housing wealth at all. This percentage is likely to grow as increasing numbers of older people find themselves living in rented property.

....."It has been estimated by the Centre for Housing Policy at York University that by 2040 a third of 60 year olds will be renting....."

The report also refers to:

"Unexpected rent increases after a landlord has made improvements to their property and unaffordable rents affected by restrictions in housing benefit...."

As to your contention that people renting don't have to bear the expense of keeping their properties maintained, that is increasingly not the case for many renters, old and young:

"Helen’s mum and dad have lived in private rented accommodation for 40 years. Their tenancy agreement means they have responsibility for maintaining the property. .,....."

........"Ben lives in private rented accommodation with an assured shorthold tenancy which is regularly renewed. The landlord is unhelpful and because he takes so long to resolve problems, Ben ends up paying for things himself. Ben is aware the landlord can serve notice if he wishes, so ‘doesn't want to rock the boat’. He has terminal cancer and needs a warm house........"

"The fear of eviction may mean that tenants like Ben have little choice but to pay for basic improvements themselves which, if they are on a low fixed income as many are, they can ill afford."

So, whilst you may have a perfectly agreeable relationship with your landlord, many vulnerable older people living in rented accommodation are having to pay for repairs and maintenance because they are frightened of being evicted.

I realise that this has drifted somewhat from the issue of pensioner benefits but I think it is important to acknowledge that a significant number of older people, and in particular renters, are financially insecure and may also have higher costs (eg for heating) than younger people.

It's too easy when deciding what others should be able to live on to ignore or underestimate all the extra living costs that can crop up at any time, the sort of thing you don't give a second thought to unless money is tight. These are just some that we have had within the last year:

-Replace a broken washing machine

-Pay for call-out and repair of the oven. The top oven/grill has since broken but will have to wait as it isn't 'essencial'

-The cost of getting out pest control to find out and deal with whatever is making destructive-sounding noises up in the loft

-New battery for old laptop

-Have fan replaced in old laptop

I can think of many smaller costs that individually don't sound much, but all add up over a year, such as replacing shower hose, light bulbs and kitchen striplight parts. To many others to mention

Then there is the considerable cost of running and maintaining a small car. There is no alternative, as the bus service here has been decimated. There are no services within three miles. Moving house isn't an option.

Also, contents insurance on social/rented accommodation seems to be higher than buildings insurance a line for home owners.

BTW, people on PC do not all get the Warm Home Discount, as not all energy companies participate in the scheme.

The fact is some people can live perfectly satisfactory lives on PC and all the surrounding benefits and some cannot. It depends on so many different factors and as I quoted above, there are people who even manage to save on it.

While I would not deny that there are places where older people are living in inadequate and expensive privately rented accommodation but the majority of older people I worked with who were on PC, were living in LA or HA housing that was in good condition, well insulated and well heated.

-- briadband woukd exoect--
broadband would expect

Eloethan
If your friend was receiving pension credit and all I mentioned because she had no private pension or other income, would you be entirely happy if her income was hiked by your tax going up in order that she or he could go on holiday, theatre trips, meals out, trips and all you mention that should be accorded to people who often have never saved, even if it were possible.
I included house insurance in my account above and food and gas and electricity for a single person.
Did you read it and not notice?
What is left is approximately £469pm to spend on broadband, tv licence (if under 75) mobile bill (which won't be anything like a young person's usage)
Basic BB is about £12-18pm (I pay £11.99 for line, evening and weekend calls to Onestream. EE charges £18pm.
I have unlimited calls texts on my mobile (£6.25pm SIM with Plusnet)
If your tv licence, briadband and mobile bills came to £69pm tbat would leave you with £100pw to spend...on clothes, a meal out a couple of times a week, the odd gift, put £4pw away to pay a window cleaner every few weeks, £10pw away towards renewing furniture or bedding. There woukd be enough for the cinema especially on cheap nights or afternoons. £100 per week is enough for those things. Even working people often don't have that much to spend on themselves.
If you couldn't manage to live decently on £167 I feel for you.
I have the skills to do it if I had to but obviously you do not.
Most pensioners don't live in hovels huddled over a few bits of kindling stirring a pot of gruel...not nowadays.
People on pension credit can't exoect to live at the same level as those who made other provision for retirement.
If they could, no-one in their right mind would save into a private pension. They'd splurge their income knowing that come retirement, their standard of living would remain the same.

You have to pay for a senior rail card to get a discount on travel though it is well worth the money if you have to travel regularly.

I think I would find it impossible to live on £167 a week, with gas and electricity, home maintenance, renewal of electrical equipment, hobbies and entertainment, clothes, food, phone bills, home insurance, etc, etc. My pensions are more than £167 p.w. but they aren't great. Fortunately my husband has a very good pension - otherwise life would be very difficult.

If people have to scrimp and save - not have day trips, occasional meals out, an annual holiday, little treats for oneself and gifts for close friends and relatives, etc, etc, I would say that is existing rather than living. I don't think it's acceptable for anyone to just exist from day to day worrying about money and with nothing to look forward to - whether pensioners or anyone else.

Receiving pension credit, as you know, entitles you to a host of other benefits. Council tax paid. Rent paid (up to the LHA limit for area) Warm home discount of 140+ off your electricity bill and £200-300 single person winter fuel allowance according to age. Free bus pass. Free sight and hearing tests. Free prescriptions. Reduced prices (25% off?) on frames for glasses. 30% off rail travel.
Concessions at gyms, swimming, food outlets, hairdressers, cinema and theatres etc.
All that plus £167 pw. If gas and electric bills were £70pm and buildings and contents insurance was another £14pm and food was £50pw × 4 = £200 that would total £284pm.
Take £284 from £723.60 (167x52÷12) and that leaves £439pm to spend on broadband, mobile phone and whatever else you think necessary. Is it not possible to save at least £50pm out of that?.

GracesGranMK3
I have never pretended to be anything other than 'comfortable' financially as most people on here know so why you think I'm being disingenuous, I have no idea.
I'm not assuming, patronising or criticising, simply adding my comments to a thread. It doesn't follow that one has to live in penury oneself in order to understand it, any more than a doctor needs to have a migraine in order to understand the patient having one.
When you get into debt and ask for help, the advisor doesn't need to be in debt or ever having been in debt in order to offer advice or make a comment.
I take it that, because you are giving advice, that you have been on the breadline...because otherwise it makes no sense. You can give advice but I can't.

GracesGran Someone on PC is also entitled to get most of their rent and council tax paid as well as qualifying for other free benefits and this should be added on before you say PC is only half of £12,000

Some years ago, in the early years of this century, I had two clients, both in LA sheltered housing on basic level PC and Attendance Allowance as well, one refused to claim for a further benefit saying she didn't need it. and wouldn't know what to do with it if she had it and another I had to encourage to go out and spend because her savings were growing so fast she would soon exceed the maximum savings level and see her PC reduced.

At the same time I had another couple both on PC and attendance allowance, receiving more than £400 a week in benefits who were constantly in debt. They had a well insulated LA bungalow and managed quite well without any extra help or care. I couldn't work out where there money was going to. I discovered, after the husband died, that they spent every evening in the adjacent working man's club. They were the heart and soul of a convivial group of drinkers.

Except at the extremities, total income is very little guide as to whether an individual can reasonably live on it.

Gabriella, I think you just need to admit you don't live on a low income and you have no idea how easy or difficult it can be. It seems you feel that not living on a low income gives you the right to make assumptions, criticise and patronise.

Of course, you would do it better you tell us. Of course, you could never be in that position you would say. But of course, I would say, Gabriella, you will never understand as you actually seem to choose not to.

GracesGranMK3 said it all very succinctly.