Liberal Democrats

The Netherlands of course have a system of PR. Unless and until,we change our voting system I can’t see how we can move back to more consensus politics

Kittylester, many people find me and my lack of knowledge unbelievable.

petra no, I haven't been 'on another planet'. TM voted remain but has for the last 3 years said she will 'honour the vote' How does that make her a remainer? I agree with Maizie

David it may have been established in the past and I would have agreed with you then but times are very different now. I voted LibDem (I don't usually) as the only way I could send a message to MPs that I don't want to leave the EU. Of course they choose to interpret that to mean I want to leave but they know that is not true.

Grumppa, you misquoted me! I never say 'the poor', nor for that matter I never say 'the blind' or 'the deaf' or 'the rich'.
I said "poor people".

I am a solvent and contented poor person . I am a socialist because I believe in equality of opportunity in housing, education, clean, air, building regulations, health care, and legal aid.
I appreciate the informational component of your reply .

Alexa your post is unbelievable.

I find Alexa's post absolutely believeable. I've never understood why poor people vote tory, either.

Grumpa's points:

Dislike of being patronised by well-heeled socialists in the Hampstead/Islington belt;

I completely fail to understand what is 'patronising' about wanting a more fair and equal society for everyone. Particularly one which seeks to mitigate the effects of poverty and offer opportunities to all, rather than just to those who can pay.

Distrust of interfering nanny state wasting the money they pay in direct and indirect taxes;

What on earth is the 'nanny state' when it's at home? The state which aspires to look after all its citizens, including those who are not able to help themselves?

As to 'wasting the money they pay in direct and indirect taxes' this is just economic illiteracy. Money spent on publicly funded services circulates in the economy in just the same way that 'private' money does and comes back to the state via taxation. It actually supports the great many private enterprises which supply the publicly funded services. There are no nationalised suppliers of goods and services to the public sector.

All that privatising public services does is make them more expensive for poor people, because the private sector exists to make a profit on its provision of goods and services, so the profit is included in any charges (train & bus fares, postal services for e.g), increasing prices and making them less accessible to 'the poor'. Interestingly, much of that profit (in the form of dividend) is either taxed at a much lower rate than earned income, 10%, or is sent out of the country to tax havens to avoid paying any tax. Poor people are just paying higher prices to make richer people richer...and deprive the country of taxation income.

Aspiration to make one's own way in the world and be like those people who live in the neighbouring Conservative constituency;

There is absolutely no way that Labour governments have ever frustrated this 'aspiration'. This is because we have always had a mixed economy which allows citizens to set up their own enterprises or to work in whichever sector they choose; public or private.

Irritation at being dismissively referred to as "the poor".

Jeez! When tories so obviously despise poor people and demonise them as idle layabouts who won't get off their backsides to help themselves (plenty of posts to that effect on this forum alone )

And kittylester

For example the Conservatives like to save and Labour like to spend - maybe compromise is the way forward.

Just what are the tories 'saving' for? Christmas? Their summer holidays?

Nonnie
Like millions of others I believed TM when she claimed that she was going to deliver Brexit.
But I changed my mind (about her claim) when she met with Angela Merkel before she met with the cabinet at chequers. I believe the 'plan' hatched then was to 'just keep kicking the van down the road' which is what they're doing now.
How could she deliver Brexit when she had the arch remainer, Ollie Robbins 'advising' her at every negotiation?

MaisieD I think you will find I made the comment about compromise - please don't slander Kitty!

I have no idea what the Tories are saving for but that was not the point!

Just as an aside, it isn’t correct to assert that Tories save and Labour spends.

If you go back to just after the war 1946, and look at what has happened in the years between then and now, and include the latest figures forecast in the Tories budget to 2022 -this is what you will find. The data has been extracted from the HoC library.

Tories have been in office for 48 of those years.
Borrowed a total of £1189.6 bn.
% of national debt due to Tory borrowing = 64.2%
Average borrowing for each year in office = 24.8%

Labour has been in office for 28 of those years
Borrowed total of £526.2 bn.
%of national debt due to Labour borrowing = 28.4%
Average borrowing for each year in office = 18.8%

There is an enormous amount of data, but I think the figures above begin to put the lie to bed that Tories save and Labour spends.

Apologies to kittylester.

Read my remark as recredited to its originator, dragonfly46...

Alexa, I did not misquote you. I copied and pasted your comment of 19.54 yesterday evening.

All right, Grumppa, it doesn't matter a lot.

Neither Labour nor Conservative could have "stormed through" in the local elections. Both parties have MPs, members and supporters who are divided as to what sort of Brexit, if any, they want.

The only "mainstream" party that is firmly pro the EU is the Lib Dems so they will have picked up votes from Labour and Conservative voters who wish to remain - and from voters who are just fed up with the divisions within Labour and the Conservatives and the consequent delay to sorting out Brexit.

I think it's unlikely that either Conservative or Labour would get an overall majority in a general election. If the Brexit Party and UKIP stand at a GE, they will diminish the votes of both Conservative and Labour, but Change and Greens are possibly more likely to diminish the Labour vote. I don't think the Lib Dems will be particularly powerful in such a scenario but it will be fairly chaotic - and worrying to think about what sorts of alliances may be made.

It obviously mattered to you at tbe time, Alexa . And the false accusation mattered to me. Kind of you not to apologise.

Grumppa, I have got over it as usual. My usual internet venues have toughened me up

+704 net gains at the local elections!-

More than the Liberal Democrats have ever achieved and more than I can find in any records for the SDP and Liberals going back to 1945. (It’s just possible that, say, in a post-Orpington year the party topped 704 – do let me know if you know better.)

National vote share up-

19% projected national share of the vote for the BBC and 17% projected share for Thrasher and Rallings – i.e. what the party would have won if the whole country had been up for election. (Different methodologies are used for these calculations. That they consistently come up with similar results gives reassurance that the results are meaningful.)

More Lib Dem councils-

18 councils elected a Liberal Democrat majority this time, which depending on how you count is up 11 or 12. To explain, the straightforward 10 are Bath and North East Somerset, Chelmsford, Cotswold, Hinckley and Bosworth, Mole Valley, North Devon, North Norfolk, Teignbridge, Vale of White Horse and Winchester. The eleventh is the new council of Somerset West & Taunton. The twelfth is South Somerset, where the party was technically just short of a majority in 2015 making this time’s 22 seat majority a stonking gain. Not 22 seats; a 22 seat majority.

Those with Lib Dem holds were Eastbourne, Eastleigh, Oadby & Wigston, South Lakeland, Three Rivers and Watford.

There will be even more Lib Dem council leaders as in some councils with no overall control, the Liberal Democrats are in the driving seat for running the council.

www.markpack.org.uk/158580/just-how-good-were-the-local-election-results-for-the-lib-dems-ldn-124/#mctoc1

Yet no LibDems were invited onto Sunday's Andrew Marr show which had politicians from Conservative, Labour, Green and SDLP parties commenting. The Brexit Broadcasting Corporation at it again.

Vince Cable has warned that Liberal Democrats are “being underestimated again” in terms of their potential to make gains in the European elections.

At a launch for the party’s election manifesto in Shoreditch, east London, its leader insisted they were “the biggest and best organised of the remain parties” in their preparations for the 23 May vote.

While climate change and cutting crime rates were high on the agenda, the event laid down the Lib Dems’ main aim to “stop Brexit” and hold a second referendum.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/09/lib-dems-are-being-underestimated-again-says-vince-cable

Just out of curiosity - what did the Greens (and Lib Dems) think over the unlawful manipulation of the data on diesel emissions from their beloved EU?

No answer to your question I see Urmstongran obviously the EU have been deceitful but Remain EU poster don't want to comment I wonder why.

Guy Verhofstadt over here campaigning with the Lib Dems for their EU election campaign that will be a vote winner not ? especially after The Inside Story programme on Brexit negotiations.

I shall vote Libdem . My heart is with the Greens but I must be tactical.

Urmston I didn't know that, I thought it was German car makers. Please would you provide a link? Thanks

Remain United has analysed support for the various remain parties and advises all remainers to support the SNP in Scotland, Plaid Cymru in Wales and the Liberal Democrats in evey part of England.

Voting for one remain party in your region should reduce the number of seats Brexit supporting parties win.

Analysis and research undertaken between the 1 – 7 May 2019 by Electoral Calculus and pollster ComRes suggests the following regional tactical voting in the EU elections.

It's strange no mention on this thread by Lib Dem supporters or any other thread that I can see re Guy Verhofstadt supporting them.

This is a European Election that the LibDems are campaigning for, not a national election.

As I, for one, have already explained, Guy Verhofstadt is the elected leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe group and our Liberal Democrats are one of the national parties in the ALDE, so he has every right to come here to support the LibDem campaign.

Nonnie
In 2010 the eu commission were told that the German car industry were lying about the diesel emissions.
Why, simple, money.