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The more I read, the more I am convinced that people really voted for Remain on Thursday. The one thing those who want Brexit seem to have forgotten is that "democracy depends on the consent of the loser".
Currently, we have Farage commenting about “building a coalition against the people”. For him, "the people" mean less than 52% of the electorate. May sees “the people” as those who will keep the Conservative party in power; Corbyn sees “the people” as those who will put the Labour Party into power. "The people" are actually the whole of the electorate.
It has to be possible for the loser to consent, otherwise, you have the dictatorship-of-the-majority. We currently don’t have a crisis of democracy, as the Leavers keep telling us, but a crisis of legitimacy.
Democratic elections are designed to create uneven votes. It is the losers who maintain democratic legitimacy by agreeing to the outcome. How losers respond to their loss and how institutions, parties, governments, etc., shape the ability of the loser to accept that their loss is legitimate, measures the level of democracy within a country.
Did the losers believe the win was legitimately gained? Did the institutions, the parties, the government ensure the outcome could be seen as reasonable and acceptable? After the election, there was a Neanderthal attitude which tried to bully the "losers" into agreeing; that was never going to work. Without a true acceptance of the vote, you have a dictatorship, not democracy. Being able to accept losing is one of the central, if not the central, requirements of democracy. For the "loser" to do that, conditions must be created which allows them to feel it was a democratic process.
There are good reasons why the "losers" do not believe the referendum was legitimate. "Winners" do not have to believe those reasons to be right or wrong; what they have to be able to do is convince the "losers" of the legitimacy of the vote. Those who still want to leave think a vote is all about who wins; it isn't. It is about both winning and whether you win in a way that those who lose can accept as legitimate. Shouting, calling people names or slurring their characters will not change the "losers" view of the legitimacy or otherwise. It would be better to assess why the vote is not seen as legitimate by the "losers" as, unless we do this, it will always seem, to half the country, to have been an illegitimate vote.
Brexiteers keep trying to appeal to the already persuaded - those who want to leave. How do they think that will change anything? If half of the country cannot be convinced the vote was legitimate enough to be able to agree, we threaten not only our economy, our future and our standing in the world but our fundamental democracy.
Thank you for clarifying Varian. (Thu 09-May-19 20:33:46) In that case, it is either your unconscious bias or mine. I don't think anything has changed so I am still wondering exactly what he said to make both you and Norman Smith think they have.
I don’t think that’s the message that’s going to win through though varian because the Remain votes will (in my opinion) be trounced by Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party.
*GGMk3 I did listen to Corbyn's speech and came to the same conclusion as Norman Smith. The EU elections do not have a direct effect on the composition of the HoC, but a strong Remain vote would send a signal that many people do not want any kind of brexit. It is certainly time that Corbyn got that message.
I think most people understand how undemocratic our FPTP voting system is. The D'Hondt system used for the EU elections is better, but in small constituencies smaller parties are disadvantaged. The system used for the Scottish Parliament is nearer to being proportional.
In last week's local elections 19% of those who voted supported the Liberal Democrats who gained an extra 704 Councillors.
I agree varian and Lib Dem has consistently campaigned for Remain and revoke.
So why did so many Remainers vote Labour then at the last GE? The Lib Dems only managed to pull 7% of the national vote. Bizarre. A late wake up call regards Corbyn and Remainers? The two are poles apart!
Varian why are you not prepared to listen for yourself but just look for confirmation of your own bias from another source?
What if one of the small parties do get most of the seats in the EU parliament. That doesn't change the figures or who will vote for what in our own parliament. It's unrealistic to think it may.
I wonder why so many of the Brexit gang are on here trying to defend their views..... It’s split the country, made us poorer and they must know their dream hasn’t materialised and won’t magically heal, Brexit won’t make everyone’s lives better but is just a charade. Nigel Farage may be your messiah , but half the country see him as a puffed up bigot. Get over it.
According to BBC Political Correspondent Norman Smith tweets-
"Jeremy Corbyn confirms Labour will seek to deliver on Brexit. Cannot ignore 17m who backed leave, he says"
twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1126430832951009280
Corbyn thinks it's fine to ignore the Remain majority in the Labour Party. If you want us to Remain in the EU you should vote Liberal Democrat in the EU election.
GrannyGravy13 Thu 09-May-19 15:00:57
No, it is irrelevant.
I wonder why the remain crew on here waste hours of their time trying to convince leavers that we are barking up the wrong tree. Panic mode?
We're not for turning so don't expend any more energy. Start baking, knitting, something productive, as yakking on about NF and trying (and failing miserably) to rubbish those who voted leave, sounds a lot like desperation tactics IMO.
Regarding Mrs May - you know something is very wrong when a backbencher from your own party asks when you are going to resign, and nobody bats an eyelid as this is normal in PMQ's.
☹️
Only thing is Mrs May isn’t going anywhere (yet)!
Yes lemongrove
It's on and in the news.
Ms McVey stated that she waited until she had enough serious backing to make a bid.
Really Gabriella ? I hadn’t heard that.
GracesGranMK3 would you like to know the voting history / intentions of all of my friends and family, along with the people I meet in our local shops, pubs, restaurants and gym, I could also ask the Mums and Grans at the school gate also?
Like or dislike the Brexit Party/Nigel Farage, they are certainly instilling fear into the two main political parties. Good! (Thu 09-May-19 14:17:41)
Do you actually realise what you are saying; what you are giving approval to lemongrove?
Two of our closest friends voted remain and they will not change their vote, we respect their view that respect ours. The friendship is more important than a vote at the ballot box. ( Thu 09-May-19 13:29:59)
Interesting that they were not the ones you chose to tell us about when trying to make your point then "GrannyGravy13*. I think you are well on the way to proving that we need a second referendum as things have changed so much rather than anything else. Anecdotal "evidence" is tricky stuff.
We expect so little of our politicians now that a single credible promise to do that which the others won't is more than enough.
The Brexit party will come home at the canter.
Nigel Farage is on BBCQT this evening, might actually watch!!
Apparently, Esther McVey, a hard Brexiteer, is putting herself forward as a candidate for PM.
Like or dislike the Brexit Party/Nigel Farage, they are certainly instilling fear into the two main political parties.
Good!
GrannyGravy13 ??????????
GracesGranMK3 - you are correct on one point....."I am not that stupid" infact I have listened to and read many conflicting interviews on the Brexit debacle given by Jeremy Corbyn. It's when he is not reading from a "momentum dictated script" that he appears to get confused!!
I have many friends through my work, charity organisations and local clubs, so your insinuation that I should "get outside of the echo chamber" and talk to people with differing views is laughable. Two of our closest friends voted remain and they will not change their vote, we respect their view that respect ours. The friendship is more important than a vote at the ballot box.
... I know lots of “young folks” who voted leave.
I also know quite a few remain voters of all ages that are so disappointed with our MPs negotiating skills (or lack of) that if there were to be a 2nd referendum they would now vote leave!!! (Thu 09-May-19 12:43:55)
That's not surprising GrannyGravy13 we all have to work quite hard not to surround ourselves with people who share our views but to get outside the echo-chamber and talk to those who don't.
Varian if JC has finally come off the fence in favour of Brexit I guess that NF and the “Brexit Party” have ruffled a few feathers. (Thu 09-May-19 12:21:22)
The only fence is of the electorates making GrannyGravy13, with such a close vote. Corbyn is part of a democratically run party - we have seen what happens to those parties that are not - it is the Labour Party who decided this was their policy, not one man. I am afraid that there are none so blind as those who won't see where this is concerned. You are not that stupid and the policy is not that difficult.
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