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What on Earth

(65 Posts)
Mycatisahacker Sun 19-May-19 15:40:07

So I see Anne Widecome was cheered by former miners in the north at a working mans club.

Yes seriously it’s true grin

Mycatisahacker Tue 21-May-19 09:59:36

Petra

I know a country funding their own arts and museums!

Who knew!

MaizieD Tue 21-May-19 09:55:12

Let's try this again:

There is absolutely no reason why we cannot fund free admission to museums and galleries. The reason that they are underfunded is political/ideological, not economic. Ever since Thatcher was in power the tories have sought to 'shrink the state' and privatise public services. This is ideology, not economics.

As for economics, the idea that national finances run on the same lines as household budgets is entirely false. The nation does not have an 'income' limited by the amount of money they can recoup in tax, nor is it limited by anything else. It used to be limited by the amount of gold it held but 'the gold standard' was abolished in the early 1970s and since then the government has been free to issue as much money as it pleases. Taxation has an important role to play but its prime function is to prevent inflation caused by too much money circulating in the economy. A secondary function is to prevent inequalities caused by wealthy people acquiring yet more wealth, monpolising the money in the economy and not returning money to the economy through spending (and ultimately, taxation). But while ever resources are in plentiful supply and available for purchase there can be very little inflation.

(And please don't say Venezuela or Zimbabwe because their economic problems, while caused by an oversupply of money, have a very different basis. They are not mature democracies with a very long established central banking system. They are also rife with corruption, far in excess of any that might exist in the UK. Japan is a much better example of a stable country running a big deficit at no detriment to their economy)

It is the government, through the Bank of England, or through banks licensed to issue money, which issues money. That is why the government can spend vast amounts on quantitative easing and on projects like preparing for Brexit. Vast amounts which are not funded by tax revenue.

As far as public spending is concerned, tories don't like it because it ostensibly deprives private enterprise of profits. However, when you look at it logically there is no reason why it should do so because all public services' resources are supplied by private enterprise. Medicines, equipment, food, uniforms, railway engines, etc. etc. We have no public companies supplying resources. The only thing that private enterprise is denied is the opportunity to make a profit by supplying the actual service.

There is a strange feeling in existence that money spent by the government on public services disappears into a big black hole and is never seen again. This is absurd. The wages of public servants are spent in the economy on things supplied by private enterprise and, as I've already pointed out, the actual services themselves purchase everything they need from private enterprises. Most of the money the government issues eventually comes back to it by way of taxation. The only money that doesn't is that which is saved in this country or that which is sent off to tax havens to avoid being liable for UK taxation. The so called 'deficit' is really people's savings or money squirrelled off abroad.

If anyone is interested I suggest they read this explanation by Richard Murphy: www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/05/10/pretty-much-all-that-most-people-need-to-know-about-modern-monetary-theory/

It really is time that people started thinking clearly about how a country is financed (clue, it isn't from taxation) instead of just chanting the 'we can't afford it' mantra straight from the Maggie Thatcher songbook..

petra Tue 21-May-19 07:21:08

That's a bit radical Mycat but with a bit of thought I think it could work wink

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 23:31:59

Well I know this may be s strange concept and call me thick or radical or old fashioned but, and I will whisper this amazing strange and shocking idea!

Maybe,and wait for it maybe, instead of sending billions to the EU to have them
Send it back to fund our countries arts and museums we could actually keep the cash and fund it ourselves.

Now have a lie down and a stiff drink.

Lemongrove cheers grin

GabriellaG54 Mon 20-May-19 22:47:31

Where do you think the funding for museums and art galleries comes from.
Museums need curators, guides, cleaners and security among many other staff who catalogue every item, restore and clean anything damaged and 3rd parties who deal with marketing.
They need money to borrow artefacts from other countries and transport costs too.
Over 60s get concessions and families spend good money on Sky, Netflix, cinema tickets with buckets of popcorn, football games, junk food, tickets for gigs and most of those people are 'working class'.
The poorest in society are not necessarily those who would think of taking their children to a museum even if it was free.

lemongrove Mon 20-May-19 22:26:48

Dinahmo calling those ( over 17 million) voters ‘thick’ is only done by the thick themselves, or the arrogant.

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 22:21:08

Dinamho

Sorry not really getting your post! Is there ever a time for adults to name call grin

Dinahmo Mon 20-May-19 20:14:03

Mycatisahacker - I don't think anybody was called thick until after Brexit. There was no reason to name call before teh referendum.

trisher Mon 20-May-19 18:59:44

It isn't anything to do with profit, it is to do with funding. In order to make a film you need to have funding Ieland will still have EU funding. The film could be made in Ireland but not in UK. Profit only ensues when the film sells.
I want working everyone to have access to exhibitions not just the middle class who can pay.
Free access to museum has advantages, it enables all people to be able to visit the museum without getting charged. This might attract a new and bigger audience to experience the museum. In his article, Kirchberg (1998) found that income is the dominating characteristic influencing the subjective significance of entrance fees as a barrier to visiting museums. People in lower social classes experience admission charges as a barrier almost five times as much as higher sociological classed people. Increasing entrance fees increases revenues but according to Kirchberg, not only decreases the number of visitors but also change the socio-economic composition of the attendance.

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 18:42:57

tricher

Look I have many working class friends builders, plumbers,carpenters who literally could not get work because EU workers would do the job for less. Even Corbyn acknowledged this.

If loache sticks to his principals he would take less profit and film in Britain.

If you want me to weep because middle class people have to pay to see an art exhibition or access a museum tough.

trisher Mon 20-May-19 18:38:47

Mch If it' s OK for workers in the film industry to lose their jobs to other EU countries is it OK if jobs in other sectors go as well?

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 18:15:10

If you are the sort who want to see an art exhibition trust me you are the sort who can afford to pay.

They shouldn’t receive subsidies they are not a special case.,

trisher Mon 20-May-19 18:02:30

They don't charge at the moment because they receive subsidies. Travelling exhibitions tend to have a charge. There is evidence that charging a fee tends to reduce visitor numbers.

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 17:55:05

And so what if ken loach shoots his films in Ireland? They will still end up in British cinemas for British people to see.

The EU doesn’t give us our cultural identity! What a strange premise.

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 17:47:20

Of course they are not but if museums and galleries are popular and they are what’s the problem?

trisher Mon 20-May-19 17:43:13

What planet are you living on Mycatisahacker here in the NE we have excellent galleries and museums which host travelling exhibitions from all over the world.
Ken Loach films have been heavily funded by the EU. It is highly likely that he will now choose to shoot them in Ireland and keep EU funding.
If we don't subsidise museums and galleries we condemn future generations to a world where only the rich can see exhibitions and experience heritage. It's not a world I want to live in. Money and profit aren't everything.

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 15:50:39

And yes of course post Brexit all Britain’s cultural heritage will just disappear.

Ye Gods!!

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 15:49:49

There is a place for Disney and Pixar and there is a place for the arts films museums and art galleries.

However I don’t agree with spending tax payers money on things people are not interested in or don’t visit.

Funnily enough this Philistine expects film makers to make films people want to watch if that be Harry Potter or I Daniel Blake.

Good films get made. And good films are watched.

Museums and art galleries shouldn’t need subsidies they should attract visitors who are prepared to pay.

Maybe less public funds will force London based galleries to travel to ‘shock horror’ the North or wales or the midlands. That would be a great step forward.

trisher Mon 20-May-19 15:42:40

Mycatisahacker well you may enjoy living in a cultural desert of Disney and Pixar with no quality films or TV and no museums, art galleries or historic sites but all of us are not philistines and believe that some things are more important than profits As for UK governments looking after things, how many libraries do you think have closed because they aren't economically viable and don't make money?

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 14:21:22

Look if smaller independent cinemas will struggle and fail then that’s because they don’t attract an audience so what a bloody waste of tax payers money propping them up!

What’s the point in sending billions to the EU to have them send it back to us!

Makes absolutely no financial or practical
Sense.

And on another level when we leave government can’t blame all their woes on the EU so we might get more transparency

trisher Mon 20-May-19 14:03:00

It's far more complicated than that, but effectively you will be left with the American film industry because they have the distribution facilities. Smaller independent cinemas will struggle and fail.
As for funding in the wider area what do you think the EU capital of culture scheme did?
Some live bands will, but music isn't just bands.
So historic buildings will be unable to offer reasonably priced entrance. That's OK then but why should the poor suffer?

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 13:28:53

Ok the market controls price.

Of course those who work in the market will say art will suffer because instead of sitting on their bums accepting EU cash they will have to make films people want to watch and put on exhibitions people actually want to see and not just in London!

Live bands will still sing live. They managed before the EU and will continue to do so.

The billions we send to Europe can be spent here. Heritage and historic buildings again it’s the market force. It people want to visit them and upkeep them fine if not well that’s fine too.

We are not going to become a cultural vaccume because we leave a trade agreement. We really arnt.,

trisher Mon 20-May-19 12:55:31

Mycatisahacker anyone who works in the arts industry will tell you all of it's branches will suffer. Watch a film if it is something of value it will often have the EU symbol at the end. Of course music won't die out completely however it will become even more expensive to see live and only the rich will be able to afford it. Not to mention the EU investment in our Heritage and historic buildings, there's nothing to replace the money the EU gave.

Anniebach Mon 20-May-19 12:54:37

Not here trisher

Mycatisahacker Mon 20-May-19 12:52:48

Pickled eggs!

Now that takes me back wink